Talk:Athorism

Dawkins

Can he get any more ridiculous? Not only does he continue to insist upon a strict, straw-man separation of naturally- and supernaturally-caused phenomena (even most creationists do not believe that, let alone most theists), but he uses the Norse name for Thor and the German name for Odin in the same sentence, and then pretends that "faith" was the core component of Norse paganism. Likely he just plucked a random deity's name out of the air and did not even bother to consider what its cult once looked like. ListenerX^TalkerX 01:12, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

As an omnitheist, I believe in the existence of Thor. Like many atheists, Dawkins only considers the possibility of exclusive monotheism (my god is the one true god, all the rest are fakes) and chooses to ignore the possibility of inclusive monotheism, which is believed in by many liberal Christians, many Hindus, and also by myself — that there is one ultimate God/dess, but the many individual Gods/Goddesses are names/images/forms/representatives/servants/emanations of this one ultimate God/dess. (((Zack Martin)))^™ 12:10, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

As a hard polytheist, that kind of thinking annoys me. The closest thing there is in Odinism to a universal entity, ørlǫg (i.e., natural law) has no divine properties to it, and while two Gods may personify the same phenomena, the personages are distinct. ListenerX^TalkerX 23:40, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, so as a hard polytheist, Dawkins' kind of objections may have some validity with respect to your beliefs... (I assume you are an atheist or agnostic with respect to the Christian God, or the Gods of other pantheons?) and with respect to the beliefs of Abrahamic exclusive monotheists. My point was more, there are quite a lot of inclusive monotheists out there (Hindus, liberal Christians, quite a few neopagans (but obviously not all of them)). Dawkins argument doesn't work for us, and he seems ignorant of our existence... (((Zack Martin)))^™ 23:48, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

The particular Dawkins talking-point I was objecting to here was "if it follows natural law, then no Gods were involved with it;" also his seemingly not knowing squat about Norse paganism.

My view, which has some historical basis, is that the deity springs from the cult, so any deity that is worshipped has some form of existence. ListenerX^TalkerX 00:37, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Which thus implies you believe in the existence of Yahweh and (the divine/heavenly) Jesus and Allah and Krishna and the Bodhisattva Amitābha... do Odin and Allah know each other? Do they get along? Sorry if that question sounds like the kind of silly dismissive question many people ask here... but I mean seriously, if one is a hard polytheist, and believe that any God exists if it has enough believers, it seems reasonable to ask if and how the Gods interact, especially those from different pantheons (given those from the same pantheon already have mythic accounts of interaction to answer the question)... Also, if a God loses all its worshippers, does it die? A lot of ancient Gods seem to have at some point entirely lost their believers, like the Canaanite Baal... if later some reconstructionist neopagan restarts the God's cult, does the God rise from the dead? Is Odin weaker now, that he has relatively few followers, than he was in the days when entire nations worshipped him? (((Zack Martin)))^™ 00:49, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I am quite used to silly, dismissive questions on religious issues; the best approach is usually to give straight and brief answers using small words.

As I said, in my conception, the personages are distinct. The meeting of deities would only occur when (as happened in Rome) deities from different pantheons started to be worshipped by the same people and their cults and mythology began to merge.

I think a deity has to be without a cult and forgotten before it is completely wiped out, although the lack of a living tradition may pose a problem. As to the Norse pantheon, their cult never really died; clandestine sacrifices continued right up into the 19th century when the national revivals came, there is a continuing folk tradition, and enough Norse paganism worked its way into Christianity that they are quite safe until the last Nordic Lutheran dies. Your Maratrea is on somewhat shaky ground, though. ListenerX^TalkerX 05:29, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

So essentially, you say both Odin and Allah exist, but they are separated from each other and don't interact, so long as no one tries to syncretise Asatru with Islam... (not a likely prospect any time soon... although, I once had this strange dream about a creole of Swedish and Arabic...) (((Zack Martin)))^™ 05:37, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes. There are some anecdotal reports of Thor and Jesus going at it in single combat, as when the missionary Thangbrand's ship was wrecked in a storm, but those did not make it past the sagas. Had the mythology not subsequently been hunted nearly to extinction, that might have served as a point of interaction.

Your dream did not involve ibn Fadlan, did it? ListenerX^TalkerX 05:53, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, that is an interesting historical footnote, thank you. (((Zack Martin)))^™ 06:27, 28 August 2011 (UTC)