Talk:Hitler and socialism

Left-wing socialists can fight amongst themselves. For example, Mensheviks vs. Bolsheviks, Stalin vs. Trotsky, etc. So the fact that Hitler opposed the SDP doesn't mean that his ideology was all that much different from the SDP's. At any rate, left-wing and right-wing totalitarian regimes are more alike than they are different. Landmartian (talk) 15:12, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

While horseshoe theory has several points to it, one is able to compare and contrast actual NSDAP ideology (as opposed to public statements) and SDP ideology. On examination, the ideology is quite different. --Castaigne (talk) 22:31, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, Nazism.net has a pretty good refutation of the NSDAP = socialist idea. However, I wonder what the Nazis themselves have to say? Time to scope out Metapedia.. Landmartian (talk) 08:37, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

As far as I remember Nazi lingo, it always couched its "socialism" in nationalistic terms, as exemplified by such terms as "Volksgenosse" ("national comrade", or literally "people's comrade"). In practice, Nazi socialism was circumscribed by nationalism to the degree that it is more accurately described as right wing totalitarian corporatism.

The problem is that many of today's right wing ideologues in the U.S. conflate any kind of welfare with left wing politics. Contrast this with Europe, where support for welfare can easily go hand in hand with right wing politics and extreme nationalists tend to support some form of welfare state. In Europe, the kind of U.S.-style "no-state-nationalism" (combining extreme laissez faire capitalism with strident nationalism) is generally pretty rare - with UKIP as probably the closest European parallel to this type of U.S. political ideology (another possible example would be Fremskrittspartiet). ScepticWombat (talk) 11:08, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Most accurate would be "fellow member of the [same] people", like how Parteigenosse means "fellow party member" (IMHO). 141.134.75.236 (talk) 11:34, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

True, translating the German "Volk" into one concise English word tends to lose important connotations - kind of like the trouble with "Bildung" or "Kultur". However, I think the word "comrade" needs to be part of the translation as that is it more accurately reflects the use of "Genosse" in German ideological lingo, having been appropriated by the Nazis from the socialist/communist parties ("Genosse" is the German parallel to the Russian "Tovarishch", the Danish/Norwegian/Swedish "kammerat"/"kamerat"/"kamrat" and so on and so forth). ScepticWombat (talk) 11:59, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it's the word that's become the German equivalent to "comrade" in the socialist/commie context, but that's not the only or necessarily most prominent use of the word in German. Especially when used in a compound noun, "-genosse" just means "person I share something with" with the preceding word being the thing that's shared. It's possible the Nazis intended this more general meaning while at the same time alluding to the socialist term to pander to the more Marxist-friendly parts of the population. I wouldn't know for sure though, I'm not an expert on the matter. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 12:26, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

While "Genosse" may be used to different effects in other contexts, in a party political context, the closest English equivalent is "comrade". Similarly, in Danish, "comrade" ("kammerat") is most frequently used as a synonym for "friend" (or fellow soldier as in "comrade in arms"; here, Germans would likely use "Kammerad"), but in politics it signals a very left wing stance to the extent that Danish Social Democrats haven't used it for decades.

I think it makes far more sense to view the Nazi use of "Genosse" as a deliberate appropriation of socialist/communist terminology (even today, SPD politicians tend to address their party colleagues as "Liebe Genossin, lieber Genosse" when beginning a speech, while no centre/right politician would do so), but also with the emphasis put on the added prefix "Volks-". It certainly fits with the general Nazi reinterpretation/-appropriation of socialist concepts: Empty them of their actual socialist contents and plug them into a right wing corporatist model of society.

You could say that Nazism combined the worst and most extreme aspects of socialism/communism (totalitarian corporatism) with the similar extreme bits of conservatism (the "corporeal" metaphor for society with its "natural" stratification and denial of (even the legitimacy of) fundamental conflicts of interests between different societal groups).

Similarly, while Nazism was an extreme right wing movement, it was closer to communism in being a mass revolutionary and populist utopian movement, rather than the "old school elitism" found among extreme conservatives of the Weimar era. This was why many extreme conservatives in Weimar despised the Nazis as a plebeian mob, but Nazi nationalist fervour and especially their support for rearmament and violent anti-communism, -socialism and -union sentiments made the Nazis attractive to Weimar conservative business and military elites as a way to break the German left. What Nazis, communists and extreme conservatives in Weimar had in common was their fundamental rejection of democracy as a proper model of governance. ScepticWombat (talk) 13:22, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Applications of Historical Details to a Second Look

I think the discussion needs to be placed in context of textual analysis of Hitler's early writings, the Eisner photograph, and possibly the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. While Nazism most definitely is a very different ideology from Marxist-Socialism, an intended precursor to Communism, there's significant evidence now that many of the early Nazis had been former Communists. The smoking-gun is the photograph of Hitler wearing a red armband at Kurt Einser's funeral parade. If authentic, the photograph proves what many historians had long suspected, i.e., that a very short time period lapsed between Hitler's transition from Communism to Nazism. Additionally, a discussion of The Night of the Long Knives is necessary to try to reach some consensus as to whether or not the Nazi Party initially had a huge element that was heavily influenced by Marx. Strasser, in particular, appears to have been little more than an extremely racist Marxist.

Leftist Atheists Are Retards ;) 33

Mussolini was a socialist before becoming a fascist. Born to a socialist father, Mussolini was named after leftist Mexican President Benito Juárez. His two middle names, Amilcare and Andrea, came from Italian socialists Amilcare Cipriani and Andrea Costa. Early in Mussolini’s life, for instance, those names seemed appropriate. While living in Switzerland from 1902 to 1904, he cultivated an intellectual image and wrote for socialist periodicals such as L’Avvenire del Lavoratore (The Worker’s Future). He then served in the Italian army for nearly two years before resuming his career as a teacher and journalist. In his articles and speeches, Mussolini preached violent revolution, praised famed communist thinker Karl Marx and criticized patriotism. In 1912 he became editor of Avanti! (Forward!), the official daily newspaper of Italy’s Socialist Party. But he was expelled from the party two years later over his support for World War I. By 1919 a radically changed Mussolini had founded the fascist movement, which would later become the Fascist Party.

That's nice dear, now go back to the kid's table. The adults are doing stuff. RoninMacbeth (talk) 01:17, 6 August 2017 (UTC)