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Talk:Men's rights movement
Menslib[edit]
I was just wondering should there possibly be a section about r/menslib and how it isn't filled with misogynists like r/mensrights is. Just a thought. Vwert (talk) 03:31, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
False dilemma regarding media attention towards FGM and MGM[edit]
I wonder which unintentional comedian(s) wrote this little section on the main page. The left column states, "In media, it (MGM) isn't given the same treatment as female genital mutilation (FGM)." The author then tries to "rebut" the left column by stating, "If one thinks that there are limited resources to fight genital mutilation, then it's worth focusing more on FGM than MGM." However, media attention is not a zero-sum game. A TV commercial could easily draw attention to FGM and MGM without taking away from the former. It's as easy as saying, "Many children worldwide suffer from non-consensual genital mutilation." Oh well, basic reasoning skills are too much to expect from certain people. Tigerlord (talk) 20:46, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yes Tigerlord. I completely agree. I have edited that section. Thanks for bringing that to our attention. ShabiDOO 21:25, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
Conscription is herring twice over[edit]
The rationale provided gives too much weight to arguments for/against men being conscripted while ignoring that conscription laws were written in men dominated government by men for men. Men as big tough fighters vs fragile women is patriarchy 101 so feminism typically doesn't do this whole jingoistic thing — Unsigned, by: 184.175.20.113 / talk / contribs
Conscription IS a real issue that affects men[edit]
All respect, why are you trying to deny that men aren't treated as more expendable in war or more susceptible to conscription? They absolutely are. Men are more likely to be conscripted for combat than women. That's a fact.
Men were inarguably conscripted into combat roles in WW2. Women were not (not for combat roles). You yourself admitted that women were only 8% of the combat roles in WW2 (aka men were the vast majority of combat roles, so clearly they were drafted for it and were forced into it much more). Even now, women are not required to register for the Selective Service System but men are. That is a fact.
And while this was done by rich men and not feminists, the reason it's brought up as a criticism is that feminists often argue "You can't be sexist against men because prejudice plus power" and "There is no systemic issues against men" (John Macintosh said that). That's the criticism to be made of feminists, to prove that yes there is examples of ways in which men have it bad.
Conscription is NOT a red herring. It's a fact. Men were and are treated as more expendable in war and are vastly more likely to be conscripted for combat roles. Why are you trying to deny that? Sulovouat (talk) 11:26, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
- Ok, I mostly agree. How about you just change this aspect of the article? If someone tries to stop you, returning here and continuing the discussion would still be wise, though. Bookability (talk) 18:43, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how to rewrite the entire thing in a way people would be fine with, as there's other points those parts of the page are trying to make so I don't know how to write it in accordance and I don't really see it as my place. I'm making it clear here and now that conscription is a genuine issue that affects men more (which this page denies wrongly). This page claims that every country that uses a draft today has it gender equal. This is objectively incorrect. Only three countries conscript women and men on the same formal conditions (Norway, Sweden and the Netherlands) (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09612025.2019.1596542), there are multiple countries where men are required to conscript whereas women are not (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_and_sexism#/media/File:Women_in_military_-_Obligation_2024.svg). Most countries today only require that men register. In America, while it doesn't currently have a conscription enacted, it is still a possibility that can be enacted. Only men are required to register Selective Service System (the database of those susceptible for the draft) and women are exempt for requiring to register (https://web.archive.org/web/20150327134007/http://www.sss.gov/FSwomen.htm). This page's denial that conscription for combat is discriminatory (or an issue) for men is wrong and, with respect, seems to be done out of contrarianism to deny that MRAs are right on anything. Sulovouat (talk) 13:42, 11 March 2025 (UTC)
- Just add that information to the left-hand side of Men's_rights_movement#War.2C_male-only_militaries.2C_and_male-only_drafts. Making a better case here probably won't have you reverted or banned. Bookability (talk) 17:10, 11 March 2025 (UTC)
- I misread this article as saying that the countries that use conscription only have gender neutral policies when it actually said that they often (i.e. not universally) have neutral foreign policies, but my point that conscription negatively affects more still stands as war is still a possibility and it still shows that they view men as more expendable and would conscript them over women, plus there are countries that conscript men over women that aren't neutral at least not currently (Russia, Finland, Denmark, Greece, Turkey, Singapore) and countries like USA do have conscription laws in place and they only apply to men. I just wanted to discuss this issue here. Thank you.Sulovouat (talk) 11:33, 13 March 2025 (UTC)
- Just add that information to the left-hand side of Men's_rights_movement#War.2C_male-only_militaries.2C_and_male-only_drafts. Making a better case here probably won't have you reverted or banned. Bookability (talk) 17:10, 11 March 2025 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how to rewrite the entire thing in a way people would be fine with, as there's other points those parts of the page are trying to make so I don't know how to write it in accordance and I don't really see it as my place. I'm making it clear here and now that conscription is a genuine issue that affects men more (which this page denies wrongly). This page claims that every country that uses a draft today has it gender equal. This is objectively incorrect. Only three countries conscript women and men on the same formal conditions (Norway, Sweden and the Netherlands) (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09612025.2019.1596542), there are multiple countries where men are required to conscript whereas women are not (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_and_sexism#/media/File:Women_in_military_-_Obligation_2024.svg). Most countries today only require that men register. In America, while it doesn't currently have a conscription enacted, it is still a possibility that can be enacted. Only men are required to register Selective Service System (the database of those susceptible for the draft) and women are exempt for requiring to register (https://web.archive.org/web/20150327134007/http://www.sss.gov/FSwomen.htm). This page's denial that conscription for combat is discriminatory (or an issue) for men is wrong and, with respect, seems to be done out of contrarianism to deny that MRAs are right on anything. Sulovouat (talk) 13:42, 11 March 2025 (UTC)
Suicide and examples of issues against men[edit]
While men commit suicide more due to more lethal methods, the reason they commit more lethal methods is due to more suicidal intent, not to mention society influencing them to have guns and use more lethal methods (https://www.bbc.co.uk/future/article/20190313-why-more-men-kill-themselves-than-women). This means there are unique issues affecting male suicide and it's more complex than women have it worse than men or men have it worse.
There are plenty of other issues that negatively affect men. They don't do as well in schools and haven't for ages. Also rape and violence against men isn't taken as seriously, especially in media. In the Boys S4, the male character Hughie was raped and it was treated as a joke (even though when Annie was raped, it was rightfully treated seriously). Also he got raped by deception but the show didn't even acknowledge it. Also in Wonder Woman 1984, a male character is raped but the narrative didn't even acknowledge it. These are both recent media from the 2020s as well. And while they were criticized for it, the filmmakers themselves still did it and even defended their work or didn't realize what they had done. Rape and sexual abuse of men is straight up not taken as seriously and the MRAs are correct that it is an issue.
While feminists are not the reason why these problems exist, plenty of prominent feminists will outright say "You can't be sexist against because prejudice plus power" or "There is no systemic sexism against men", so they are dismissive of these issues or don't believe in them which is blatantly wrong and deserving of criticism. Obviously not all feminists are like this, but some are and people are right to call them out for this. Sulovouat (talk) 14:54, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
- I stopped reading as soon as you brought up random pop culture references in support of your idea. Bookability (talk) 18:44, 9 March 2025 (UTC)
- If you can refer to Anita Sarkeesian's criticisms of video games as examples of sexism against women, I can use media as examples of sexism against men, especially when this is an example of society's tendancy to not take male victims of rape and sexual assault seriously, making it very relevant. Sulovouat (talk) 13:05, 11 March 2025 (UTC)