Talk:Rochdale sex trafficking gang

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This Crime related article has been awarded BRONZE status for quality. It's getting there, but could be better with improvement. See RationalWiki:Article rating for more information.

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How does this relate to the issue of some Lebanese Muslim rapists in Sydney, Australia? Is that a completely separate issue, or somehow related to this one? --(((Zack Martin))) 12:27, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

This is a good article & well researched. Silver? Possibly needs more snark. WéáśéĺóíďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 21:19, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Title[edit]

Okay, I get that "Muslim grooming gangs" could tread on toes, but is "British Pakistani rape" any better? Balaam (talk) 19:07, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

It's not very well phrased & could probably be replaced with something more self-explanatory, but let's not follow the BNP & their ilk by characterising this as a religious phenomenon. WéáśéĺóíďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 19:17, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, i was just about to type this very thing. one thing, it's not "rape" as much as it is grooming - which is quite a serious thing. It's CHILDREN being groomed, and that should be part of the title. Green mowse.pngGodot She was a venus demilo in her sister's jeans 19:23, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
I get the problem with characterising it as a religious phenomenon, but the current title characterises it by nationalism/ethnicity. Has anyone got any suggestions for a third option? Balaam (talk) 19:25, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Well since the term 'Asian' covers half the population of the world including the Chinese, the use of this term in general is just wrong. Also please can some evidence be given that it is a muslim or even a pakistani issue. As opposed to a European problem. Where are the comparative national figures? Also present some evidence that it is 'children' who are being groomed as opposed to adolescents. What is the age range? It totally ignores grooming by catholic priests and even Jimmy Savile. This article is not worthy of rationalwiki and should be deleted. Dirk Steele (talk) 19:56, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Of course the whole issue depends on defining the word 'groom'. Any takers? Dirk Steele (talk) 20:13, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
This is indeed a very strange sort of article. Acei9 20:19, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Delete?[edit]

  1. -- Yep. Acei9 08:45, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
  2. Definitely. It's an incoherent mess with a really bad title, and doesn't really document anything noteworthy. rpeh •TCE 09:01, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
  3. I would suggest that, if the article has to go, it is replaced with one focusing on the Rochdale gang; the subject already has its own Wikipedia article, about half of which covers the surrounding debate. Balaam (talk) 13:25, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Better to rewrite than delete. This is a controversial issue that's received a certain amount of media attention in the UK, & statements from public figures like Jack Straw as well as the far right Islamophobes. WëäŝëïöïďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 12:58, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

"Of the offenders examine, a disproportionate number were Asians"[edit]

Okay, this article as it stands right now is seriously problematic and needs to be either fully revised or scrapped. Since when so we think it's okay to analyze crime and social issues in terms of the racial/ethnic background of the alleged perpetrators? It's really unclear if this article is supposed to be debunking a moral panic, or if it's meant to be an argument that there's a bunch of evil sex-crazed dark folks running around and we need to protect our pretty white girls from them. If it's the latter, suggest forking it off to Metapedia. Theory of Practice "Now we stand outcast and starving 'mid the wonders we have made." 20:22, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I would go with scrapping it. Acei9 20:25, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
So there seems to be a problem with this particular ethnic/religious group and child grooming. Maybe it's true, perhaps not, but does this men mean we also need an article on white men who travel to Asia for the same purpose? Acei9 20:26, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
If we are going to keep this article, let's retitle / refocus it as "child sexual abuse - grooming" or some such, so we can 1) get it removed from the racist comments, address who is going to these parolers in asia (as Ace said, lots of rich white guys go), and look at some real numbers. Green mowse.pngGodot She was a venus demilo in her sister's jeans 21:20, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
Agree, as it stands this addresses an issue which is bigger than this particular group and is in fact a problem in most, if not all, cultures. Acei9 21:40, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
It was meant as a summary of the comments from various figures, beginning with Jack Straw as he was his statements which got it in the mainstream sphere. Basically, as this Hope not Hate article said:

Paedophilia and sex abuse reaches across all communities and involves men from all ethnic backgrounds. Indeed, we have repeatedly highlighted BNP and EDL supporters who have recently been convicted for child abuse. However, no-one can deny that a significant number of recent ‘grooming’ trials do involve men of Pakistani origin and young white women. Rather than pretend this is not the case we must confront this issue, understand why it is going on and then do something about it. If we don’t then the far right will have a field day and more importantly we will be letting the young women down.

Balaam (talk) 21:25, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
As I have stated the word 'grooming' needs to be defined first. Is it applied differently according to race? Or culture? Also the word 'Asians' as used in some statistics. What happens across the world - is this a British only event or prevalent elsewhere? The terms used are currently so ill-defined as to make meaningless any conclusion. Dirk Steele (talk) 21:59, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
We already have an article about groomers which includes a definition. I've added a note to the introduction explaining what the source articles mean when they mention "Asians". Balaam (talk) 08:12, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
You're making an assumption about what they mean by Asian, then immediately comparing stats on Asian groomers against census data on Indian/Pakistani people specifically. That's not good statistical analysis. And your cite 1 is about the CEOP who conducted the grooming research advising commentators not to read the report in terms of ethnicity, as you are doing, because the data on this is so patchy. I think ToP is right; we should look behind the coverage & discuss how accurate this picture really is. ЩєазєюіδWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 08:27, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Then can't you work this into the article? Balaam (talk) 13:23, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Delete...again[edit]

Same reasons as above. Changing the title does nothing to change the relevance. Acei9 11:19, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I said nothing. The weird rasping sound was the wind in the eaves. Acei9 11:27, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

KEEP- got acres of UK press coverage and a far right obsession.

The only major objection is that some Americans don't understand that Asia extends west of China.12:00, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Acceptable. --Zipperback (talk) 21:15, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Other cases besides[edit]

The are 10 other cases of sex trafficking besides this one. — Unsigned, by: 98.113.215.216 / talk