User:Inquisitor Sasha/Moved discussion from User talk:Hamilton

I told him how improper it is to insult Autistic users by calling them "not normal". Very well, but has anyone told you how improper it is to insult gay users by calling them "confused" or trans users by telling them "there is something not right about you"? Are these comments really so different from "not normal"? If you want to play the conservative card, so be it; these attitudes to LGBT people can certainly be characterised as conservative positions. But if you want to play the tolerance card, as you have in various other pages & as you do every time you cry "ableism", then you should think about reaping what you sow. Ŵêâŝêîôîď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 23:26, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

If I knew the way/I would take you home. 23:42, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd appreciate it if you guys would take this off of my talkpage.--Token Conservative (talk) 23:55, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

"there is something not right about you" That comment did not have anything to do with whether or not that user is gay, transgender, or transsexual. I have no idea if that user is gay, transgender, or transsexual. The comment was because she made weird comments somewhere. Claiming that it was a hate attack is like claiming that not hiring a Black person is racist, even if the decision wasn't made on any criteria related to race. –Александр(а) Ehrenstein (Talk | Contribs | Ragebox) 00:22, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Again, are these comments really so different from "not normal"? Wèàšèìòìď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 00:25, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Again, can we take this elsewhere?--Token Conservative (talk) 00:37, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

–I started this earlier but I'm finishing now– I am extremely tolerant of people, regardless of their lifestyle, so long as they don't promote hate against anyone. You seem to think that I can't be tolerant because my views on a single subject are slightly different from yours. If you cannot accept that, than you are being intolerant. Considering how involved I am with fighting bigotry and hatred, I find such claims extremely offensive, let alone silly and incorrect. There is a spectrum of being pro gay, pro tolerance, or pro any other equality. I fully support gay people, gay relationships, gay sex, and gay marriage. Some people are like that, but don't support gay marriage because they're overly conservative on the marriage part. However, if they support gay people in every other way including their right to be in relationships and have sex, and they don't think it's bad, then they're clearly pro gay. Not as much as I am, but still pro gay. Any attempt to characterize them as "ignorant" or homophobic is therefore ignorant and intolerant by the person making the accusations. –Александр(а) Ehrenstein (Talk | Contribs | Ragebox) 02:36, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I just looked at User:Sophie Wilder and I'm pretty sure I was referring to the mass of profanity when I said "there's something not right about you." Furthermore, I didn't see anything indicating that the user was transsexual. Another thing related to having Asperger's Syndrome, I'm sensitive to anything that looks like mental illness denialism. Also as someone with Asperger's Syndrome, conforming to what is "normal" has been very important for me, for obvious reasons. I don't think that people with Gender Identity disorder need to be cured, unless they want to be, and if they do, they shouldn't be shamed for it. I see similar arguments made by people who promote the idea that Autism is a lifestyle and deny that it's a disorder. I think that GID is no where near as much of a disorder as Autism; if the APA stopped classifying it as a disorder, I wouldn't have a problem with that. Of course, the Autism denialists are far worse and are promoting the suffering of severely retarded Autistic people by campaigning to deny them treatment, just because they're upset about getting punished for doing completely unacceptable stuff. –Александр(а) Ehrenstein (Talk | Contribs | Ragebox) 03:00, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

It would be much easier for you to see how wrong you are on this if you understood that gender is a social construct that is completely contingent in nature. If what it means to be of a particular gender is completely different in 19th century Paris, the United States in the post-war era, among the Ibo people before European incursions, and Japan right now, then how can we meaningfully talk about a single disorder that encompasses all that? If I knew the way/I would take you home. 03:09, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

I see what you're getting at. We have many different ways of defining gender per culture. The example I remember was the painting of Louis XIV who was wearing robes and high heals with stockings and long hair, and yet that was considered extremely masculine back then. In such a perspective, the concept of a gender identity disorder is foolish. Though you could define the disorder as going against the relevant culture's definition. –Александр(а) Ehrenstein (Talk | Contribs | Ragebox) 03:19, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Ehrenstein, you still haven't answered my question: what is the difference between "not normal" (something you regard as ableist when it's directed at you) and "there's something not right about you" (something you said to another user)?

To me these phrases look basically synonymous, but if there's a major difference in meaning, then please explain. If not, then it just looks like you're insisting that everyone must know & care about your condition & walk on eggshells around you while you're free to say whatever you like about other people. ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐ^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 06:58, 17 June 2013 (UTC)