User talk:Landmartian/Some ramblings on the topic of friendzoning

Hey, so, here's the thing. The problem here isn't that they invented terminology to cope with some kinds of rejection. The problem is that there's almost exclusively this attached sense of entitlement to a romantic relationship with a given woman as some kind of payoff for their friendship. That presumption of the choices of others as a result of your own choices is, well, pretty shitty. It completely removes her own thought process and agency from the discussion. Ikanreed (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

So basically are they assuming there's a social norm that she's violating, kind of like if you were to do a bunch of favors for a friend and then one day ask, "Can you help me jumpstart my car, I left the lights on last night" and he said "No"? It seems like wishful thinking to expect that sex will be treated like other kinds of favors, in the context of a friendship. It's not like a romantic relationship, in which the guy's doing housework, buying his girlfriend flowers, etc. may lead to more sex. The whole point of having declared statuses of "friend", "girlfriend", etc. is so that people are clear on what the expectations are and aren't.

I had a female acquaintance who would say stuff like "I lost my purse! I'll give a blowjob to whoever finds it for me. I'm serious; find it, and then we'll see." or "Please drive me to the airport!" and then when told no, would say "I promise, I'll give you five blowjobs if you drive me there" but I found she reneged unless she felt attracted to the guy. I just haven't found that women (except for out-and-out prostitutes) are willing to treat sex as a tit-for-tat kind of situation; there has to be chemistry. We're at a point at which so many guys have had an expectation of tit-for-tat, though, that a lot of times women will decline men's offers of gifts, favors, etc. just to avoid the expectation.

Then again, there are sugar daddy situations (for example, that same acquaintance had boyfriends who bought her drugs and stuff, which may have been a big part of her motivation for staying with them), but I assume in those cases there's at least some chemistry. I dunno, I've never been a partner in one of those. It is undeniable, though, that rich guys have more romantic options. So I guess that these guys who complain about getting friendzoned need to convert their labor into money and then sex, rather than trying to convert it directly into sex. Landmartian (talk) 17:32, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

You seem to be missing the point where Friendzone isn't about insecurity or anything, these guys are at least pseudo-secure in themselves, it's solely about how these guys think that a relationship with a woman should lead into sex and when it doesn't, they feel cheated. --Miekal 18:05, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, but why isn't it leading into sex? If she were interested in him romantically, then maybe moving the sofa would help him get sex. But for some reason she wasn't interested. He wasn't able to attract or seduce her. Frustration and hurt at rejection could be an issue in some of these cases.

But with regard to expectations of reciprocity, it seems like a cultural issue, kinda like with the indian giver misunderstanding. Maybe these guys need to move to a culture where it's the norm to reward couch-moving with sex. I'm not aware of such a culture existing anywhere. Landmartian (talk) 18:17, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

It's pretty much just them wanting sex and then complaining when the woman has the gall of saying no. And to them, we do live in a culture where moving a sofa = Sex, because they think we live in a culture where opposite-sex friendship = Sex--Miekal 18:20, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Culturally western males have been brought up to believe they "deserve" the pretty girl. Let's face it, practically everything they experience in popular culture has the hero "winning" the girl. Superman "gets" Lois Lane. And, after all, aren't we the heroes of our own lives. If then, we fail to "win" the girl then there is something wrong with the plot. Life hasn't lived up to expectations.

And, of course, "winning" the girl means sex, not being friends. That role is left for the token gay. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 18:34, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

What about Nick in Casablanca? He rescued Ilsa from being unable to leave the country, but didn't get to have sex with her, because she left with her husband. Or was it implied that they had sex, but they couldn't make it explicit because of censorship?

Usually in these movies, the hero does something really exceptional (thus demonstrating competence), not just a small favor, plus he's typically hunky, charming, successful, interesting, etc. and maybe also had a rapport with the damsel, so there's a lot of stuff that would tend to make her attracted. Landmartian (talk) 18:40, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I think that the best comparison to what a friend-zoned guy is upset about is along the lines of narcissistic rage-he thinks he deserves something so anyone who says otherwise is bad. Instead of empathizing and recognizing that set actions do not entail their deserving sex, they get upset when they are told "no." A 'Nice Guy' doesn't realize sometimes a girl was never romantically interested and that things are fully platonic from her perspective. Women often get close to other people without developing sexual feelings for them. Well adapted men know that sometimes women just are not interested and that you can't make someone love you by doing a certain set of things for them. Arachne1988 (talk) 18:46, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

(EC)Casablanca is an outlier in that it's one of the few movies where the hero does not win the girl. That is a significant part of what makes it one of the all time greats. Oh, and he did win the girl and possibly have sex with her - back in Paris (which they will always have).

But, as you say in these movies, the hero does something really exceptional. So, if "doing something exceptional is they way to "win" a film start then moving the sofa should be exceptional enough to win the girl next door. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 18:53, 14 January 2015 (UTC)