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Essay talk:Change inside of me

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  1. Forgive a descendant of Protestants his ignorance, but what is "CCD"? Am I correct in divining that it is the Catholic equivalent of Sunday-school?
  2. What is this organized oranges argument? It sounds like something from which you could make a fun-space page.
  3. You state that when you were a monotheist, you were an "old earth creationist." Does this mean that you subscribed to the idea of theistic evolution?
  4. If so, why did you later take the position that if an event occurred according to natural law, no God had a hand in it?
  5. With regard to your remark about Gods of lightning, what do you mean by "modern god"?

Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX 02:53, 23 February 2009 (EST)


  1. Yes, CCD is the Catholic version of Sunday school.
  2. The organized oranges argument states that if you came across five neat rows of oranges lined up with 10 oranges in each row, you would assume that someone put them there, therefore, with how neatly organised our universe is, you must assume a god made it. I reject that argument as false, however, because oranges in a row have no natural explanation, but the formation of the universe up to now has a modern, natural explanation.
  3. I did subscribe to theistic evoltuion, my version was "Evolution happens, but God guided it".
  4. This is the complicated one, but as I stated in the essay, I realised that a god capable of guiding the formation of millions of planets, and billions of lifeforms, while constantly reading the thoughts and desires of every single lifeform at the same time would have to be absurdly more complex then the creation it would run. This led to my skepticism about, and disbelief in, any gods.
  5. I do suppose "modern" is a bit of an etic term to use, but what I mean is that societies that have embraced the scientific statement of lightning (Electricity build-up and discharge) do not worship the god that was created to explain that natural occurance.

I hope that answers your questions. ĵ₳¥ášÇ♠ʘ no fate but what we make

I understand that Indra, the Hindu version of Zeus, is still worshipped. Admittedly, a God of lightning would probably not be made today due to our understanding of the causes of lightning, but that should not be a block to worshipping the old ones.
Also, given that the universe as we know it could form according to the laws of physics, then any being complex enough to encode the laws of physics could have directed the universe's formation if given the "primeval atom." So the necessary complexity of a creator is not that much greater than that of the universe itself; analogize to the idea of the Universal Turing machine. Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX 11:33, 23 February 2009 (EST)

Interesting stuff Java[edit]

Similar in some ways to what happened to me.--Bobbing up 04:46, 23 February 2009 (EST)

Now that's what I call rational'. ToastToastand marmite 05:15, 23 February 2009 (EST)
I found this essay quite touching in its candid-ness (sic?) and appreciate you letting us into your conversion in such a personal way. I doubt if you are the only one on this site to have had such a de-conversion, but I think you are the first to describe it in this way.
I remember once seeing a youtube video of somebody who secretly taped the moment they revealed to their parents that they an atheist. It may have even been linked from this site, but if I remember when I get home later, I'll try to find the link. Any way, the parents took it like the kid had just revealed he was a mass murderer!
Thanks for the essay, and good luck with your new-found non-religion! Bondurant 05:21, 23 February 2009 (EST)
Excellent work. It's great to see people being honest about this stuff. But it's rather unusal to find the family being this tollerant in similar stories. I'd count yourself lucky there. ArmondikoVsshole 09:55, 23 February 2009 (EST)
Well, it was my dad's side that was really the most tolerant one, so yes, I was lucky in that particular way. Nods.gif ĵ₳¥ášÇ♠ʘ no fate but what we make
I have to grin at your particular way of describing things that "made sense" to you as a 8, or 12 year old -- though you didn't have the vocab nor experience to articulate it. Kids know things, as they are developing thier personalities. But as you say 1) they don't know how to express it yet, 2) they don't really know the ramifications yet, and 3) arguments probably sound a lot like "is not" "is too", "no sir" "Uh-huh".  ;-) nice to read, thanks.--Sun mowse.pngEn attendant Godot""We are all born mad. Some remain so." 10:06, 23 February 2009 (EST)
Good essay, & I'm glad you made the journey. Mine was pretty similar - I stopped going to church as soon as I was old enough to be left at home; rejected organised worship but still tried to be a Christian, struggled with it & came to realise I just didn't have any conviction in it. So it was a gradual thing rather than a moment of revelation. But I never exactly had to 'come out' as an atheist to my family - fortunately they're not forceful about religion & have never driven me to any kind of confrontation about it, but I think they know by now. ωεαşεζøίɗWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 10:12, 23 February 2009 (EST)
This is what I was referring to earlier: Good to hear that your parent's reaction was better than this! Bondurant 10:15, 23 February 2009 (EST)

Interesting story. I agree that many people, especially in the US, throw around the word atheist as if it were a slur. My parents pretend that I am still a good catholic, and my in-laws pray for me (after I had to apologize for stating my beliefs, after they asked me). Z3rotalk 11:06, 23 February 2009 (EST)

Reading the comments above there is another point here. We sometimes here ideas along the lines of "There is no point in debating with theists (Or OEC's or whatever) - they are beyond reason, so it's a waste of time". The fact that such people are able to change their minds suggests otherwise.--Bobbing up 12:40, 23 February 2009 (EST)
Oh, there certainly is a point in debating people who are beyond reason — the giggle-value of the pastime is not to be equaled! Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX 13:02, 23 February 2009 (EST)
Yeeeees. Ummmmmm .... Remind me again Listener .... You are a believer in the great God Odin if I remember correctly?--Bobbing up 17:10, 23 February 2009 (EST)
Yes, my irony meter got quite a jolt from that statement as well. ωεαşεζøίɗWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 17:33, 23 February 2009 (EST)
Your point being? Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX 21:52, 23 February 2009 (EST)