Talk:2014 Isla Vista killings
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Envy Was the Cause, Not Misogyny[edit]
In my view, the cause of the spree was not misogyny, but rather the perpetrator's enormous envy, envy of other men having relationships with women, while he never came even close to establishing one. Plain and simple, he was envious for other people having something, that he couldn't get. He mentions that feeling in his manifesto: "Jealousy and envy… those are two feelings that would dominate my entire life and bring me immense pain. The feelings of jealousy I felt at nine-years-old were frustrating, but they were nothing compared to how I would feel once I hit puberty and have to watch girls choosing other boys over me. Any problem I had at nine-years-old was nirvana compared to what I was doomed to face."
If you read his manifesto, you can see that it's full of the instances where he would burst with envy when seeing or finding out about other boys doing well with girls, especially what he called the "obnoxious slobs". At that point it was hate for sexually successful men, not women. To tackle that envy, at first he was fantasizing about denying all the other people sex by outlawing it: "This was when I formed my ideas that sex should be outlawed. It is the only way to make the world a fair and just place. If I can’t have it, I will destroy it."
Later on he, as he became more aware that he would never be able to accomplish that (if he ever truly though he would be) and instead he started theorizing about destroying the very object of his envy: "If I can’t have it, I will destroy it. I will destroy all women because I can never have them." He repeats the same thing in his retribution video: "If I can't have you, girls, I well destroy you." He equally addresses men ("And all of you men, for living a better life than me, all of you sexually active men, I hate you. I hate all of you. I can't wait to give you exactly what you deserve. Utter annihilation.") and the humanity as a whole ("...the day in which I will have my revenge against humanity, against all of you"; "I hate all of you. Humanity is a disgusting, wretched, depraved species. If I had it in my power, I would stop at nothing to reduce every single one of you to mountains of skulls and rivers of blood." He also complains about not being able to fit into his social group: "All those popular kids who live such lives of hedonistic pleasures while I've had to rot in loneliness for all these years. They've all looked down upon me every time I tried to go out and join them, they've all treated me like a mouse."
I mean, this just seems to me so wrong to say that this boils down to misogyny, especially given that this is supposed to be a wiki that discusses things based on reason. --Ted25 (talk) 20:14, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
- Nope. The idea they were possessions instead of people is Misogyny. It's not really envy to shoot the objects of your desire either because they won't let you purchase them in the way you want. -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 20:27, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
- Even if he viewed women as "possessions" or objects instead of people (which is yet to be proven), it was not because he chose hold that view, but rather because of his mental illness. --Ted25 (talk) 20:43, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
- You posted the screed that proves otherwise. Even then, high functioning aspergers is not a disorder that has any sort of those components in the DSM. Tens of millions of people live with it, and much more severe illnesses, without hurting anyone. Many actually help their community because they know what it feels like. Unless you can proved his medical records of a licensed clinical professional with the finding of cause then you are the one making some big assumptions on direct cause. -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 21:44, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
- How does it prove otherwise? Regarding the mental illness, it's not really clear whether he had Asperger's or not. But the bottomline is that he had serious mental issues (could have been extreme narcissism combined with social phobia and schizoid personality disorder, and so forth) that, together with loose gun laws, were the cause of that murderous event. --Ted25 (talk) 22:14, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how it would prove otherwise than him thinking women are objects, it's your point not mine. It was clear what he suffered from because his parents opened up about his struggle, about his illness, and about his therapy. It's in the fucking article and has been across the news. None of your guesses of disorders have any sort of evidence which given your demands for proof, in the face of actual proof from his family you ignore, is stupendously baffling. -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 22:27, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
- You wrote: "The idea they were possessions instead of people is Misogyny". Where is your proof that he viewed women as possessions? --Ted25 (talk) 23:01, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
- I know, and I know what you were trying to say, but it was to point out that could have been worded better. :-) Firstly, let's get to the point about his illness since his high functioning Asperger's is a baseline fact in record while yours are guesses. Being able to change one's view with proof is a sign of debating in good faith which I feel is kind of lacking so far. If you won't change your mind with known concrete facts...we can't move forward. No point in spending one second more digging things out that won't convince you anyways. -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 15:25, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
- If I'm not mistaken, he was never officially diagnosed, and it was just what his father told the media. But, frankly, I wouldn't deny it, since it perfectly fits into my case. For his illness, Elliot was prescribed risperidone (which he never took), that, according to Wikipedia, "reduces certain problematic behaviours in autistic children, including aggression toward others, self-injury, temper tantrums, and rapid mood changes". That anti-psychotic medication was prescribed for a reason and should have made a hell of a lot of a difference, according to his father. --Ted25 (talk) 01:19, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
- I know, and I know what you were trying to say, but it was to point out that could have been worded better. :-) Firstly, let's get to the point about his illness since his high functioning Asperger's is a baseline fact in record while yours are guesses. Being able to change one's view with proof is a sign of debating in good faith which I feel is kind of lacking so far. If you won't change your mind with known concrete facts...we can't move forward. No point in spending one second more digging things out that won't convince you anyways. -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 15:25, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
- You wrote: "The idea they were possessions instead of people is Misogyny". Where is your proof that he viewed women as possessions? --Ted25 (talk) 23:01, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how it would prove otherwise than him thinking women are objects, it's your point not mine. It was clear what he suffered from because his parents opened up about his struggle, about his illness, and about his therapy. It's in the fucking article and has been across the news. None of your guesses of disorders have any sort of evidence which given your demands for proof, in the face of actual proof from his family you ignore, is stupendously baffling. -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 22:27, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
- How does it prove otherwise? Regarding the mental illness, it's not really clear whether he had Asperger's or not. But the bottomline is that he had serious mental issues (could have been extreme narcissism combined with social phobia and schizoid personality disorder, and so forth) that, together with loose gun laws, were the cause of that murderous event. --Ted25 (talk) 22:14, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
- You posted the screed that proves otherwise. Even then, high functioning aspergers is not a disorder that has any sort of those components in the DSM. Tens of millions of people live with it, and much more severe illnesses, without hurting anyone. Many actually help their community because they know what it feels like. Unless you can proved his medical records of a licensed clinical professional with the finding of cause then you are the one making some big assumptions on direct cause. -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 21:44, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
- Even if he viewed women as "possessions" or objects instead of people (which is yet to be proven), it was not because he chose hold that view, but rather because of his mental illness. --Ted25 (talk) 20:43, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
Moreover, in his manifesto, he talks not only about his envy for other boys having girlfriends, but for other kids enjoying more affluent lifestyles than him. For instance: "If only my damnable mother had married into wealth instead of being selfish. If only my failure of a father had made better decisions with his directing career instead wasting his money on that stupid documentary. I couldn’t help but feel a bitter form of envy at all of the rich kids at the concert. They grew up in lavish mansions, indulged in excessive opulence, and will never have to worry about anything in their pleasurable, hedonistic lives. I would take great pleasure in watching all of those rich families burn alive." --Ted25 (talk) 20:58, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
Elliot had a pathological hate for anyone, who was in any way more advantageous than him. This is a typical line from his manifesto: "At the entrance, father and I greeted Jack Ross, the son of Gary Ross. He was a spoiled brat of a sixteen year old, and to my embarrassment he stood taller than me. I immediately hated him on sight." --Ted25 (talk) 21:27, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
- So what? His manifesto & video clearly show that he wanted to punish women in general (not specific women) for not making themselves available to him. Yes, this is envy; it's also very clearly misogyny. The fact that he was narcissistic, resentful & misanthropic about other things (as is often the case with misogynists) doesn't lessen the fact of him being a misogynist. ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐ
Methinks it is a Weasel 22:41, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
- I think it's more to do with unwillingness to accept what is in front of him. Look above about the kids mental health issues that the family has provided to the public versus the wild ass guesses based on the wild guesses of an armchair psychologist who never set eyes on their "patient" (quote: "could have been extreme narcissism combined with social phobia and schizoid personality disorder, and so forth"). -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 14:52, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, OK, you can forget that unfortunate line. I'm more than fine with the Asperger's diagnosis. I've extensively read and listened to what Elliot had left, and I can see similarities between his mental health problems and the ones I've been experiencing through my life (though I was never that far isolated and psychotic), which makes me want to get into the essence of the problem instead of throwing out labels. Saying it was simply misogyny is too of a superficial explanation and represents a feminism-centred view (not saying feminism is in any way bad). --Ted25 (talk) 02:22, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
- I think it's more to do with unwillingness to accept what is in front of him. Look above about the kids mental health issues that the family has provided to the public versus the wild ass guesses based on the wild guesses of an armchair psychologist who never set eyes on their "patient" (quote: "could have been extreme narcissism combined with social phobia and schizoid personality disorder, and so forth"). -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 14:52, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
"Iwhine"[edit]
""Not all men" is the defensive whine from men who take critiques of structural violence and injustice personally." This rubbed me the wrong way (I'm not really a regular contributor at all, so I just thought I'd bring it up). Not because it's supposedly wrong, but because it's factually correct and would be a good summary for demonstrating to the adherents of the "not all men" notion where their mistake lies. An insulting tone lowers that chance. I'd suggest changing the sentence into something like "The statement "Not all men" is born from the mistake of assuming that critiques of structural violence and injustice are targeted at individuals or are to be taken seriously."
Video on the topic[edit]
Great analysis of what happened: [1] (for those in the UK: [2]). --Ted25 (talk)
Psychopath?[edit]
Was he diagnosed with a ASPD at any time? In my strictly dilettante opinion, it seems to me that many psychopaths seem to get a hang up about the opposite sex; let alone his incredibly high opinion of himself, alongside his failure to fit in anywhere (cos he was a creepy weirdo (yes, I know many psychos are charming superficially)). If so, could a lot of his manifesto have been bullshit designed to mess with people's heads? (For absolute clarification, I've no doubt he was a misogynist.) Scherben (talk) 22:38, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
He was NOT diagnosed with Asperger's[edit]
- The original CCN source states that his diagnosis was revealed in court documents, where your article's source for his lack of diagnosis is a family friend. I'll add a note, but overall the CNN source appears more authoritative. Petey Plane (talk) 17:36, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
- According to this police document he was diagnosed with pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified (PDD-NOS). --Ted25 (talk) 05:48, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- It also says that his autism evaluation scores were "below the autism and the autism-spectrum cutoffs". --Ted25 (talk) 06:48, 30 May 2017 (UTC)