Talk:2014 Isla Vista killings/Archive1

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PUAhate moderator writes for A Voice for Men

Is this worth a mention in article? [1] --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 17:48, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't think so. ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐ^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 19:58, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I guess it's relevant for the "various MRA sites and personalities switched into full defensive mode, dismissing any possible connection between Rodger's ideas and their rhetoric, and going on the offense, decrying the "politicization" of the murders by feminists" part but not enough for article space --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 19:59, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Looking at this article, I think the priority should be putting in some proper citations covering the key points - i.e. linking to the video & manifesto rather than merely talking about them in the abstract, & including a few links covering reactions from MRAs & incels (not all of whom denounced the killing). There are some relevant links in all three WIGOs. Once there's a bit more coverage of reactions, the PUAhate/AVfM connection may be worth mentioning, although that Reddit post isn't the greatest source to cite. Weaseloid^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 20:17, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree, it would make the article seem biased if we used it as a reference. I guess I linked it here because it's interesting as a talking point, how interlinked these blogs are. We should definitely expand the actual shooting and content on Rodger though, I couldn't agree with that more --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 20:30, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Opening Rewrite

I honestly don't think that calling this a "misogyny-fueled killing spree" is accurate. The man had serious mental health problems, he refused his medication, he stopped his therapy 4 years before the killings, was diagnosed with high functioning aspergers at age 7 and he had severer abandonment and rejection issues. Narrowing this entire thing down to "misogyny-fueled killing spree" seems a bit off don't you think? Hobby (talk) 17:09, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Not really. The biology behind why a person takes the hate they feel and actually pulls a trigger is a serious question. But his motivation was clear. He hated women; felt entitled to sex; felt superior to all other men, but hated women who could not see that he was superior, etc. The killing is unique. the sentiments are, sadly, common. Had he written a 100 page manifesto about immigration, like the guy in Sweden did, we'd be talking about that.One tin soldier (talk) 17:14, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

So you're just happy with missing the entire point? I'm talking about abandonment issues, trouble connecting and loneliness and you keep coming back to misogyny. Do you not see how all of the things I mentioned are running themes in mass murderers? By the way, Anders Behring Breivik was the guy in Norway who killed 77 people. The page on him says "His objective was to kill as many of the next generation of Norwegian social democrats as possible, because he holds the party responsible for allowing large scale Muslim immigration." It does NOT say that he went of a politically-fuelled killing spree, because that would not be accurate. He was not fuelled by political hatred. He was a loner fuelled by mental health issues. Hobby (talk) 17:26, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Like the two things are mutually exclusive? Wëäŝëïöïď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 17:42, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

If you want to change the tone of the line, that's fine. But when you sweep very real issues like misogyny under the floor and talk only or even mostly about "mental health" than we lose connection to the debated that violence against women begins and ends with society's views on women, men's views that women's bodies are possessions; men's views that they have a right or entitlement to sex, etc. Yes, he was mentally ill. But a critical conversation that is coming out of this is about how society deals with women, views them, views violence against them, etc. WE can have another conversation on mental illness, but that's not the one that is as needed right now, with this set of facts.One tin soldier (talk) 17:39, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I defend the point that mental health was the cause behind this. Although I'll concede the point that I argue this entirely because Rodger's manifesto reminds me of my speech patterns when I forget to take my lithium and mania sets in and also of that talkative paranoid schizophrenic dude in the room next to me back when I spent that week in the insane asylum. |₹Λ¥$€₦₦ ^{Masturbation masturbation pies pies Brian Cox} 17:48, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't think any reasonable person is saying mental health is not an issue here. And if the crux of our article were "how do we stop shottings" is should be the first thing we look at - cause the guy who hates blacks, or gays or women but lives his life peacefully is totally different from the same "hater" who picks up a gun or bomb. But I don't think our article (at least not on this shooting) is really about how to stop shootings. I think this one resonates so much, and has such staying power because women stood up and said "i know that guy, at least before he started killing people. I've lived with the guy who thinks that he should have sex cause he wants it. I've dealt with the friend who decides i've "friend zoned" him; I have sat on the bus with the guy who thinks I'm a target for his attention no matter what i do to say 'no'." Sometimes, the facts of a case aren't the compelling story - but the reaction to the case are. In the 80s, it wasn't that OJ was found not-guilty, it was how the white and black world reacted. It wasn't that Rodney king was beaten - that happens all the time, it was that the community around him not only said "enough", they did so by rioting. To me, this isn't about "Oh god, another shooting" as much as it's about a door way to some really critical dialogues about men's (culturally, not individually) views of women.One tin soldier (talk) 17:59, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I think that even if he didn't latch onto MRA ideology (debatable whether he's an MRA; he has more in common with incels, and even MRAs think incels are batshit), all roads would still lead to Rome. Had he latched onto say, communism? He'd justify himself accusing his victims of being the filthy bourgeoisie. Libertarianism? He'd accuse his victims of being communists. Anarchism? They're filthy statists. Dark Enlightenment? The first step in bringing down the Cathedral.

But then again, I find that the misogyny is the least horrifying (but by no means it ceases to be wildly disturbing) part of the manifesto. I find the racism (especially the anti-miscegenation parts, but that's because I am a mixed race person from a family with a long story of race mixing) to be more disturbing. I mean, fucking goddamn hell, Rodgers calling black men "barbaric, wild and beast-like" and them having no right to date white girls was the most hateful piece of shit I've had the pleasure to read in a while. And some sexism on the top, the cherry on top the swastika-shaped cake. Go fuck yourself, Rodgers.

Even then, it's not the most disturbing part of the manifesto. No, that'd be his overblown God complex. I was just angry at the misogyny and racism, but when he began to talk about himself as a god whose mission was to punish mankind and talked about his fantasies of killing people slowly and painfully, it was the first time in a long while I was legitimately scared of something.

Sorry for that useless tangent in the second paragraph. I just felt that the racism was kind of not paid enough attention. |₹Λ¥$€₦₦ ^{Maaaayyyybeeee you'll think of me when you are all alone} 18:45, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

That is why i said, I'm not denying the mental illness at all. People who talk about themselves as gods don't anger me, they make me say "ok,it's seriously time to get you help". But for me, and for a large number of women, this is the, what, the straw on the camel's back that got us saying "enough is enough". (and yeah, the racism is way way scary. including his anti asian racism, even though his mother is asian, by all accounts...)One tin soldier (talk) 18:48, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) So, a person who tries to kill off "the next generation" of a certain political party is not fueled by political hatred? Do you read what you write?

It's one thing to try to distance him from your favorite political movement, it's another to deny that the spree was motivated by misogyny.--ZooGuard (talk) 17:41, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Hobby has been pushing MRA talking points on this and other subjects for a while, doubtless just coincidence. The idea that it was "mental illness NOT misogyny" is also coincidentally an MRA talking point. I KNOW, WHAT ARE THE ODDS. Anything Hobby adds to or subtracts from the page would benefit from extremely close review - David Gerard (talk) 18:00, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Here comes the complete shutdown. "Lets just ignore him because I disagree". How about you actually look at the evidence. The man refused psychiatric help and medication, had social communication problems, he wrote about abandonment and rejection issues and was an isolated loner. Sorry for actually trying to have an intelligent conversation without refusing to acknowledge the other sides points. I guess that's something you are incapable of Dave, as I have frequently seen in YOUR edits. Hobby (talk) 18:05, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

You're still missing two things. One: Why was such an obviously ill person allowed a gun? Two: Why, of all the things a mentally ill person could do, did he choose to do what he did - in a nutshell, why did he target the type of person that he did, and did his use of certain websites influence his direction? It's not enough to say he was ill. There are millions of mentally ill people and they don't all issue manifestos and go on killing sprees. Sophie^Wilder 18:33, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I completely agree that he shouldn't have had a gun. That only reinforces the mental health failures. Also, mentally unstable people can be influenced in pretty much any direction. They are far more dangerous when they are isolated, socially awkward loners. Saying that he was pushed to these extreme actions because of a hatred of women not only ignores that he hated pretty much everyone, but also that he had a very serious god complex. He thought himself better than all those around him, yet people are trying to put some anti-women spin on this. He showed just as much hatred towards the men that women hooked up with as the women. For some strange reason however people seem to gloss over all of this and say that he just hated women. I am however perfectly willing to compromise. If you want to somehow mention Rodger's long serious of mental health issues and social communication problems along with misogyny then go ahead. Don't however propose to turn this page into another "MRAs are all dicks" page, as the issues at hand are far greater and far deeper than the simple surface nonsense people are focussing on. We need some half hearted balance for fucks sake. Maybe if someone here had read Chris Ferguson's piece on this it would be a lot easier to explain why this is ridiculous. Hobby (talk) 20:05, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

There are also billions of misogynists who get laid and live normal lives. Even if he had more 'self-awareness' and understood 'hey what i am planning is wrong, i shouldn't do this' he would still be as alienated and RWers would still consider him subhuman. Alliumnsk (talk) 11:26, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

I would even go as far as saying that there's more misogynists among those who get laid easily than among those who struggle with it. --Ted25 (talk) 03:08, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Hobby, if Rodgers had, instad of doing what he did, written a manifesto on how the Jews control the banking system, spent hours and hours on Stormfront or some similar site, and then shot up a synagogue, would you argue that andtsemitism was not a prome factor in the killings? Father Vivian O'Blivion (talk) 18:44, 12 June 2014 (UTC) This is all about semantics, apparently. "Misogyny-fueled killing spree" implies that misogyny was a major part of the killer's motivations, which is true, stop reading more things into it like "if it's misogyny-fueled, then it can't be mental-illness-fueled!" Of course it might also be mental-illness fueled, but that part is present in so many mass shootings, I don't know if it's more noteworthy than the misogyny part (though it is certainly noteworthy in its own right, so make sure to include it!). Nullahnung (talk) 18:50, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Wannabe copycat arrested

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/police-man-threatened-kill-woman-uw/ngMPt/ --ZooGuard (talk) 10:05, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

The biggest reason for a shooting happening appears to be that another shooting happened before it "for inspiration"? Nullahnung (talk) 11:24, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand. Is this a reply to something in the article, the article's comments, or my choice of section title? --ZooGuard (talk) 11:28, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Your choice of section title. If you're confused, you may safely ignore what I wrote. I didn't have much of a point to make beyond what I wrote. Nullahnung (talk) 11:30, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Why was this necessary

Had Elliot Rodger never heard of Cherry Blossoms or FilipinoCupid? It seems like this (i.e. multiple shootings) all could've been avoided, because he could've gotten all the love, companionship, and sex he wanted if he'd been willing to meet someone online and travel to southeast Asia. And yet no one has put out a bulletin saying "Guys, if you're thinking of pulling an Elliot Rodger, there are a couple sites you might want to check out first." Why has this been overlooked until now? Admittedly, he did have the disadvantage of being only half white, but still, he probably could've succeeded. To quote Neil Strauss, "As anyone who regularly reads newspapers or true-crime books knows, a significant percentage of violent crime, from kidnappings to shooting sprees, is the result of the frustrated sexual impulses and desires of males. By socializing guys like Sasha, Mystery and I were making the world a safer place." Landmartian (talk) 21:20, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

So the solution to male violence rooted in a feeling of entitlement to pussy is to marry off men with violent impulses to women from the developing world? It is well known that I have an occasional problem detecting sarcasm, so please tell me clearly if you are a. seriously suggesting this, b. making a joke, or c. trolling. Thanks. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 21:46, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

It's Landmartian, so (a). This is what MRAness looks like when it's trying not to shit all over the floor - David Gerard (talk) 22:40, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

While you're right that what Landmartian proposes ignores the root of the problem, he's not wrong in suggesting that it would've been preferable for the perpetrator to have sought a less extreme, non-lethal solution to their sexual frustrations instead of going on a killing spree. It's also not untrue that in some non-Western parts of the world, being perceived as Western can be a big help in hooking up with someone. Not that the latter is a particularly good or non-stupid thing, though. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 23:12, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, it would have been preferable if he hadn't gone on a killing spree. No shit Sherlock. But that's got nothing to do with mail order brides. Wěǎšěǐǒǐď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 23:42, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

The solution to the abuse of women justified by male entitlement is a less horrific manifestation of the abuse of women justified by male entitlement. Got it. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 00:39, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Now, now, no need to go strawmanning me. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 02:17, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

He wasn't attracted to Asian women, so that wouldn't have worked for him. --84.237.132.155 (talk) 10:38, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Drug-induced?

In his so-called manifesto, he writes "To end my life, I will quickly swallow all of the Xanax and Vicodin pills I have left". Does anyone have any more info about his use of the aforementioned drugs? They could have a played a big role in him plotting and fulfilling the killings. --84.237.132.155 (talk) 10:02, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Uhh, Xanax and Vicodin generally don't make you feel like planning a mass murder. --Ymir (talk) 12:31, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

That's what Big Pharma wants you to believe... Wėąṣėḷőįď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 13:54, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

My point is that they can remove anxiety/hesitation/inhibition that can hinder you from doing it. For people with social phobia, anti-anxiety medication (like Xanax) can be very empowering, and, when you have a horrible narcissistic personality like Elliot's, all your ugly urges can be let loose. Plus, the execution of the acts of murder itself requires a degree of confidence, I imagine he could have been easily stopped when he was doing his first stabbings. --84.237.132.155 (talk) 15:21, 13 February 2016 (UTC)