Talk:Friend argument

I am not racist, but I don't have even a single black friend.^{I also don't have any white friends though.} DeltaStar_{Senior Sysop}^{Speciationspeed!} 00:48, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Of course you're racist for not having black friends. Now your only option is to specifically stalk black people and go up to them in bars shouting "BE MY FRIEND DARKIE!!!" ^sshole 01:18, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

This article it pretty weak. It goes into a lot of semantics about friendship & seems mostly to be saying that when somebody uses this argument, they're probably lying or exaggerating about having black friends (gay friends, whatever). That may be true in a lot of cases, but it's not what's intrinsically wrong with the friend argument. The real flaw (which is only mentioned in passing in the last couple of sentences here) is the implication that having a friend with characteristic X exempts you from prejudice against that characteristic. Like when somebody says "How can I be a misogynist? I love my mother". Wẽãšẽĩõĩď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 23:42, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

I'll try to rearrange it to give that prime billing. ^postate 12:54, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Betterer? I almost feel like we don't really need the "how do you define" friend thing, seems like it distracts from the issue. I've tried to explain why it's fallacious too, although that may have involved covering the same ground twice. ^bomination 13:34, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I think it's better, & the text below can be left out. The "what is a friend?" thing is completely arbitrary, and the "you say you have a black friend but I'll assume they're not really a real friend of yours" thing is at least as bad an argument as the friend argument is in the first place. Wěǎšěǐǒǐď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 20:01, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Cut, temporarily

What is a friend?

Most people would say that a friend is someone whom you frequently spend free time with, outside work or school, someone you would share a secret with, or someone to whom you would lend valued possessions. The classmate you occasionally greet, or the receptionist at your office don't count as friends. They are "acquaintances", and no good for clearing you from prejudice. Most people have only a handful of close friends at any given time.

Another view: What if you had to rank your best friends, including family? Say that you had to prioritize who could come to your wedding party. How many of these token friends make the top 10? The top 20? If you go down to the top 100 people you know (probably having included your extended family, your high school class and teachers, your work unit, people you hang out with, neighbors and so on), you can see the percentage of your acquaintances belonging to "them". Would you boast that number? Does that seriously tell you what "they" are like?

Also: Would they consider you a good friend? Considering your general attitude toward their ethnicity/orientation/religion, etc? Would you want to be friends with someone who had a real problem with an essential part of your identity?

And seriously, does a "friend" from a group really insure anyone from prejudice against "them"? If your friend, who is X, is someone you're glad is "not a typical" X, or if you sometimes wish they didn't act like such an X, then you probably don't like people who are X very much, do you?

If you still feel you need a better explanation of what a "friend" is, see here.

---

Philo people - general question

Many of the fallacious argument category are under the side nav bar "Logic". Should this be true for all of those articles, or is it a case by case. (as in, can I add the side bar to all, or do we want someone who knows logic to look at each one?) GodotGet over it!. 15:10, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Template:Logicnav is randomised. It links to six randomly selected articles from category:logic (as "General Logic") and six random articles from category:fallacious arguments (as "Bad Logic"). The template can be added to pages in either cat. Ŵêâŝêîôîď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 20:05, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm probably not understanding, but don't we generally want "side navigation bars" on most pages, when appropriate? You say that 6 random pages get the side nav bar? or am i just stupid here. which isn't surprising for today. ^{— Unsigned, by: WaitingforGodot / talk / contribs}

Within the template, you will see links to a random selection of articles. The template itself appears on whatever pages it's added to. If you want to put it up here, go right ahead. Щєазєюіδ^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 21:06, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, that made more sense. It's just like the other sidebar templates then. I was some how convinced you were trying to say it's a random template. rolls eyes at self. anyhow, it gives me a "background" edit work I can do, when I don't really want to write, but want to help. GodotGet over it!. 21:15, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

The Fan argument

Just an idea I had. The friend argument appears to refer exclusively to people from a certain group being used to that ap person does not hold prejudice against said group, and it doesn't seem to matter whether or not the former actually agrees with the latter's opinions.

The fan argument is used when a person tries to suggest that that a person or organisation is not bigoted against a certain group because they have supporters who are from said group (e.g. "Gamergate isn't misogynistic, look at all these women who support us!"). It differs from the friend argument in that it doesn't require the person/organisation being accused to actually know the person supposedly exonerating them. TheSocktor (talk) 20:32, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh, when I read the section title I thought it'd be about saying you can't be prejudiced towards people/cultures you're a fan of. E.g. "I'm a big fan of Hawaiian culture! It's so exotic, so cool! How could I be prejudiced against Hawaiians? I love Hawaiians!" 141.134.75.236 (talk) 20:53, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd say that #NotYourShield is completely irrelivant because it's people coming out and saying that they are not what people are saying they are, not people saying "my friends aren't straight white males, therefore I must not hate non-straight white males!". 62.31.209.216 (talk) 08:26, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Flaw

I feel like the "I am not misogynist all my girlfriends have been women" counterexample is flawed, since in this case, you have no other choice than to pick women if you want a girlfriend. While a racist person may find plenty of friends in non-black communities. ^{— Unsigned, by: 2A01:CB19:8687:4600:9958:F008:ADC5:4EB / talk}

If you are a friend of a black person, LGBT person and so on- you would defend their rights

Sticking up for a friend is part of being a friend. --Possible Goat (talk) 15:30, 18 September 2020 (UTC)