Talk:Pick-up artist

	This Men's rights movement related article has not received a brainstar for quality. Please consider expanding the article appropriately. See RationalWiki:Article rating for more information.

Archives for this talk page:

<1>

, (new)

My personal experience

I can see now why this is controversial, and a lot of Pua-s probably deserve all the criticism. So this is just my experience, that shows maybe there are exceptions. (Maybe these are not "real" puas, but something else. Dating coaches.) Although this was long time ago, and in retrospect it's not clear what to think of the value of it. So this is not an encouragement to by the program, just some personal reflections.

To make clear the context, I am on the autism spectrum, and sometimes social interaction is challenge. (I live in Hungary.) Until my mid-20's I had just one short ill-concieved relationship. So I took interest when an ad popped up, selling the "Girlfriend activaton system" by a business man Christian Hudson (I had no idea about pua community at all at this time, and apparently he is not part of the pua community anyway). I read some rewiews to make sure what I'm buying, and then I bought multiple programs from them(audio, video). Altough the price was quite high, I haven't regret it. Now that I'm older and wiser (hoprefully), I will not buy more, moreso because it is probably the same thing mostly. And i have a girlfriend now since 3 years, so anyway.

Now the question is - was it really useful, or was it just placebo. (I don't know exactly, but probably there was coincidence in it. At least partly.) So this guy - was formerly actually working with pua-s, but later fed up with them. He started a more "mature" way, and this program advocates for long-time relationship. Now there is probably some woo and stereotyping going on there, from his pua-years. That I don't list here, and anyway I didn't use those, some of it was fishy even back at the time. Supposedly reading what erotic literature women read most (and analyzing the charachters) helped him to form some "theories". Now obviouly, what one fantasizes about, and what wants in real life may not be the same. Altough there may be some truth in it. (expect some bdsm themes like dominance, altough toned down a bit)

It can teach real human values though. Competence, going after the truth, honesty, being responsibe (while also having fun), having a mission etc. Work on yourself, "getting your shit together", talk about your values. And of course, not having guilt/shame about sexual desires (he explicitly mentions his Christian upbringing, which caused some problems with this.) A lot of things may be "common sense" for a lot of people, but not for others. For example - sadly! - he has to point out that it's not about "when you want it most, but when she wants it most" - e.g. don't rape (there are probably some mra guys in the audiance, so this would explain it...). And of cousre, how to connect to other people, relate on a personal level, listening to them, being a little playful, then maybe open up more etc. These - I feel - helped me some to navigate relashionships.

Aside of giving value, it can have problematic parts though. Some of the examples look almost like "negging", some reverse psychology, others seem just a little silly (retrospectively). A few even may be considered sexual harassment (altough depends on the context, probably, it is not clear). Note: I did not use the individual examples he gives, (obviously these are specific, and thus cannot apply to my life- mostly), just some of the philosophy I might find useful.

Anyway that's my story. Thing of the past, now that I have a stable relationship. Maybe a little counterbalance for all the wrong these crazy pua-s did. Maybe we can make something good out of it (?) Good luck! 5.38.151.45 (talk) 21:42, 30 May 2020 (UTC)balazs

If indeed you learnt to become more social and confident and interact romantically with women through respect and honesty, and perhaps gained more success at developing relationships with them, then its because you learnt how to develop as a human being...not become a pick-up artist. It seems like you did all the work yourself and you could have done this without all the extra toxic baggage that comes along with pick-up artistry: like to objectify women, use sleasy deceptive tactics using psychological sexual warfare and look at them as disposable hilarious conquests. In other words...there are way better routes to developing yourself, building confidence and navigating personal and romantic relationships without engaging with those toxic garbage people. I'm glad you ended up with positive results. Good for you! ShabiDOO 07:58, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. I hope I didn't pick up (ha!) too many negative attitudes, or deceptive tactics from this. Now that I remember, what inspired me the most was Alex Allman talking about the power of showing genuine feelings, fears and vulnerabilities. (There were multiple talkers.) Talking to people about what I'm afraid to talk about, for example. I realized then I was hiding my true self from people. Now this (and other things) you say probably I could have known by using some of my brain, or at least from someone who's not asking money. True - probably some hindsight bias here. I was clueless where to begin, and this got me thinking. Probably not as bad as other pickup artists (I don't know the others so well, forgive me). And definitely better than my then-"friend" who kinda tried to brainwash me (is this the good word?) into not opening up about important things, 'cuz you can't trust people maaan... (and especially women - in his mind... glad that I've freed myself from this toxic guy) Sorry this was very personal, but then probably the whole topic is.

Anyway, feel free to critique the company/the guy (Christian Hudson), if you consider adding to this page. He appeared on CNN and Men's Health - must be big player. Altough as I said, he doesn't identify as PUA. This review describes the company as 'post-PUA' values - presumably meaning less misogyny and more quantum self-development.5.38.149.44 (talk) 22:11, 1 June 2020 (UTC)balazs

A good relationship involves a lot of open, honest communication. If something is on your chest, it's best to let it out, even a little; a good partner will listen to you. Also, keep in mind that disagreements will happen in a relationship and this is normal because your partner has her own thoughts, different education, different life experience, and so on that will influence their decisions. You should try to better yourself but also try to better your partner too. Try to develop your own sense of competency, what that is, what good judgement is, but also try to see if your partner also knows about competency, see if your partner is also honest with you too. It's not just bettering yourself, you should also focus on helping your partner be a better person too. You might offer insight she doesn't while you should also allow her to make her decisions and respect them too. Like, assume good faith too. If your partner didn't answer your call, assume she forgot or is busy and don't worry. A partner that gives the cold shoulder is not good, so tell her that cold shoulder is not acceptable and do not practice it yourself. Anyway, you can talk to a therapist too if you think you should get into your own emotions or understand your partner too. It's fine to show vulnerabilities. Everyone has them and not dealing with them is, well, allowing them to become serious problems that can eat into your psyche. Anyway, this is my perspective, from a young woman who is in a relationship, so I hope you find that angle valuable. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 22:36, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you Lefty, for the good advice. Like I said, I try to live by this philosophy, respect and honesty, so glad that we agree on this.

In fact, (thanks to you) I realized that if I think of it more deeply, I think now of "gaming" as part of this philosophy. Like I would not use it, to belittle or demean other people, but to inspire them to become a better person (or maybe just to show what I'm looking for in a relationship), by being challenging and have some expectations. Not to deceive them, but to make life more interesting and inspire curiosity, by a little mysteriousness and surprises (Hudson calls this "thrills"). Not pushing myself on others unwantedly, but to make meaningful connection and showing my genuine self, by being assertive and pursuing what I want. And not "cutting off" to deceive them into following you, but just having some boundaries and priorities in life. That's what I see as "game".

How is that for a reframing of the issue? :D Same moves, completely different motives and life philosophy. The latter doesn't have to be sleazy or pushing "traditional" gender roles (yuck), but can move towards egalitarian and truthful relationships.5.38.149.44 (talk) 09:54, 3 June 2020 (UTC)balazs

I would like to say the guy who gave up his life to travel Asia and meet Asian women doesn’t sound bad.^{— Unsigned, by: 2600:1702:9f0:d140:e429:b1d0:22c8:fb3d / talk 05:19, 14 December 2022‎}