Talk:The Venus Project
Counterpoint for criticism based on altruism
I think there is no counterpoint for the criticism section and there should be:
Critics will also cite the commonly-held belief that just because one does a day's work, that somehow gives them the right to get paid, and that people will always demand compensation when contributing labor or investing any of themselves into the progress of society. The conclusion is that without some form of monetary compensation, people will have no motivation to participate or contribute in society.
I understand that these are the words of critics but since we are evaluating if the idea of venus project is viable or not(theoretically speaking). I believe that two things should be added to counter the above cited. One is Mazlow's hierarchy which is lacking the need for any monetary system, and the other of course is the altruism that can be found all over the world and especially modern internet. I remember a book from Wallace P. (Psychology of the internet) had a chapter about altrusim that maybe could stand as a counterpoint. Micdhack (talk) 06:21, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- Those sound like very poor counter-statements to me; Mazlow's hierarchy was based on a very small sample size and has been heavily criticized, while communities on the Internet are a very poor parallel to real-world communities. ListenerXTalkerX 06:30, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- As far as i know there aren't any other hierarchies out there that tried to describe needs. All theories are criticized. The reality is that there some universal needs , and probably mazlow's hierarchy especially the first tool levels (food, shelter and security) are more than valid. The need for money is given only in relation to cover those needs(and the rest of them in whatever hierarchy they might be). The hierarchy may vary from location to location and between cultures but i think we can easily say based on evidence and common logic that food, shelter and security will probably be at the top. People have a need for money to cover those needs, if money didn't exist or exchanged for these needs then people would gladly accept the new conditions. I am not saying that this is a proof or an explanation of everything, but i am saying that based on this and actions of altruism that can be found even in real life, that a money-free society would not die out of boredom. Besides the criticism written at that section is based on a "commonly-held belief" which is way less concrete than scientific published work.Micdhack (talk) 07:01, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
For a moment I did not see how this was classified as woo. If anyone was introduced to the Venus Project by looking at the city planning talks by Jacque Fresco, I urge them to take a proper look at the site. There you will see that they do not make a clear division between their asserted, unsubstantiated claims about social planning and Fresco's structural designs. So, unfortunately, the Venus Project has to be classed as woo by virtue of the first aspect. A shame really. It would be very interesting to see if and how a circular city would function.
From forum thread
In your article about The Venus Project (TVP), it seems that you're trying to make it look like pseudo-science with specific questions like “Given that we have scarce resources, the central planning computer needs to have a way to prioritize between millions of competing desires. How important are cars relative to fridges? How big should these fridges be? How often do they need to be replaced? Should we make more fridges or more fridge factories so we can make even more in the future?”
Well, the answer is rather simple: Of course there would be a limited amount of resources for every individual in the RBE , but after assessing the total number of resources available, the central computer would just have to divide equally those given resources of energy, transportation and appliance design & manufacturing made by robots among the inhabitants in that society, for example on a monthly bases in the form of resource credits similarly to what Marshall Brain was talking about in the Australian Project part of his Manna story. Just to give you an idea, Brain was saying that everybody gets 4000 credits a month (don't know the number exactly), and it's up to individuals to use those resource credits as they wish with a catalog to choose from the available food, clothes, shelter, appliances, and vacations together with their corresponding resource expenditure; a simple fridge would be worth 50 credits (again, I don't know the exact amount but I'm just throwing numbers around), and a super duper fridge would cost 250 credits. — Unsigned, by: JLMfoto / talk / contribs 00:27, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
Given that the venus project resembles marxism, this criticism can be easily refuted. Just as marxism is based on historical determinism, the venus project is generally based on determinism and science. The documentary stresses that all decisions are made based on scientific analysis of people's necessities. Although humans would certainly be involved in the process, it is not humans that make those decisions. For example, scientists makes many conclusions, but none of them is despotic, since scientific truths are independent from human minds. One might argue that human desires are subjective and a judgement on desires is also subjective. This is, however, only true for 'desires', but not for 'needs'. Judging whether soda is delicious enough to produce is subjective, but it is scientific truth that human body needs a certain amount of water to survive. The production in the described society is not about satisfying desires, but necessities. Once all necessities are guaranteed, Fresco argues, old incentives like wealth and power disappear and new incentives like desires for scientific and philosophical truths arise. This is not a new idea; Plato argues in Republic that only philosophers achieve supreme happiness. Also, it is simple misunderstanding that resources are scarce; they are abundant but the monetary system resists efficiency and promotes irrationally rapid spending.
Lastly, I want to stress that any argument concerning future, such as marxism and the venus project, should not be examined solely based on historical evidences; it is extrapolation and thus does not guarantee accuracy. Rather, one should focus on the argument's criticism on history and assumptions. For example, if one finds the following false, the venus project loses its credibility: that the venus project's criticism on the monetary system is not accurate or that its assumption that humans would not be greedy when all necessities is false.— Unsigned, by: Rnjsanwjd / talk / contribs 17:33, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
The new section on the plan may be a bit silly. I was wondering what made them an actual "project" so I looked at their site to see what they were really doing. Then I discovered that their plan involves building a theme park after building a city and thought this information should be on the page.--SpecialFFrog (talk) 14:33, 12 March 2015 (UTC)