Trying to prevent RationalWiki judging Christianity too harshly

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Yes. I am trivilizing that, cause I don't now, and didn't then think it's all that big of a deal.

I so strongly disagree with the premise that "not nearly as bad as" is not a valid argument - especially here.

I truly think that atheists by and large, are latching onto a stronger "victim mentality" in the us, but they are not victims.

And while every one of us can find someone, somewhere, via the grape vine, who was not given a job because they were an atheist, it's not exactly something that is common or frequent or systamatic.


The trouble with using such a strong term as persecution for what atheists go through, is that it diminishes the real struggles of people who are truly denied access to parts of our system because of their choices, their genetics, or whatever else. I have never head of an "atheist bashing", i've never heard of an atheist being denied entry into the country, and it's illegal to deny them equality in holding office (though that doesn't mean people will vote for us, it means if they do, you cannot prevent me from accessing the position).

If we are going to disgree, so be it, but i just can't stomach someone who is an atheist comparing their "struggle" (which amounts to not having people like them, frankly) to the stuggle of gay people, or blacks, or women, or muslims.

Green mowse.pngGodotQu'un sang impur abreuve nos sillons19:31, 15 July 2012

The issue isn't with the "not as bad as" argument, but with the double standard where some are accepted as legitimate and some aren't. You're trivialising organised campaigns of harassment, yet we know that you wouldn't dare trivialise a similar campaign if it was directed at other groups.

Scarlet A.pngnarchist19:43, 15 July 2012

"You're trivialising organised campaigns of harassment." For the most part, those campaigns are pretty fucking trivial in their own right--they don't really need Godot's help on that count.

Theory of Practice Years of being an atheist: 30. Instances of persecution on that account: 0.20:08, 15 July 2012

As I pointed out, WfG (and now you) is conflating persecution (I don't know who made any claims about that - Proxima?) with (non-institutionalized) discrimination, which everyone else is talking about. And which most certainly exists. In the same way that, in theory, there are laws protecting the rights of women in minorities, but there is still a lot of discrimination and prejudice that exist outside the scope of those laws.

*politeness: off*

And if you think that a state representative publicly saying that a schoolgirl is an "evil little thing" is trivial, you are a bloody knobhead.

ZooGuard (talk)20:22, 15 July 2012

It's a horrible thing for an elected official, or anyone for that matter, to say such a thing--but can it be fit into a broader instance of generalized hatred towards a group, like when, for example, a Michigan representative in the wake of the Vagina Affair called a protestor a "cunt," thus reflecting a generalized hatred of women in our society? I think not. Call me out for playing the "not as bad" card, but I think that can be a bullshit move, in that some things REALLY aren't as bad as others.

Theory of Practice Years of being an atheist: 30. Instances of persecution on that account: 0.21:44, 15 July 2012
 

Triviality is relative. I think if you were, say, Jessica Ahlquist receiving death threats from people who pay attention to these organisations and also do genuinely believe what these billboards say, you wouldn't call it trivial at all. In fact, it'd be far, far from trivial.

Scarlet A.pngpathetic22:04, 15 July 2012

I empathize with the woman in question as a fellow human being; as an atheist, though, I feel no special bond with her, nor do I see an attack on her as an attack on me because of our shared disbelief in God. If I were gay, I would in all likelihood see an incident of gay-bashing as something directed at me because of who I am; if I were a woman, I would see a sexist diatribe as being directed at me because of my gender. I see this as an attack on an individual--a viscous one, no doubt, but not as an attack on "my" group, if only because "not believing in deities" is not, for me, something so important to my self-understanding that I see it as a major part of who I am or a grounds from which to form community or alliance.

Theory of Practice Years of being an atheist: 30. Instances of persecution on that account: 0.22:11, 15 July 2012

I don't particularly have any identity politics associated with atheism (I don't really have an identity at all, in fact) but I don't see how a presence or lack of that changes anything.

Scarlet A.pngd hominem22:21, 15 July 2012

Well, because persecution and discrimination are typically based on a person'r membership in a targeted group. If the "group" as such doesn't really exist, then they can't be discriminated against as such, right?

Of course, the way around this is to argue that the group does exist in the mind of the persecutors, and, when the rubber meets the road, that's what matters. Case in point--there were no witches. But witches existed in the minds of certain people, and so "witches" were persecuted on the basis of their membership in a group that only existed in the minds of the bad guys.

But at the end of the day, I need a lot more than what people have demonstrated here to take seriously the existence of a real problem of persecution or discrimination against atheists. There needs to be something more in terms of structure, frequency, and history for me to go and get my panties in a knot.

Theory of Practice Years of being an atheist: 30. Instances of persecution on that account: 0.22:34, 15 July 2012

I don't think we're all on the same page here. Let me lay out my argument point-by-point.

  • Discrimination against atheists exists. (As well as against other non-believers and all religious minorities, if you want to cover religious discrimination in general.)
  • Discrimination against atheists is not as bad as discrimination against other minorities. However, it does not follow from this that it does not exist and/or is inconsequential.
  • Discrimination against atheists is driven by different motives than most other forms of discrimination. Disgust is more often the motivating factor behind discrimination, but when it comes to atheists, it's distrust. (See Edgell et al 2006, Gervais et al 2011, and Gervais and Norenzayan 2011)
  • Discrimination against atheists seems to manifest in a categorically different manner than other forms of discrimination. Why this is is hard to say because there's little research published on it. However, the basis in distrust, relatively small number of atheists in the population, inability to tell atheists apart by appearance alone (unless the person's wearing a Richard Dawkins t-shirt or something), and regional variation in religious belief are probably big contributing factors.
  • Yes, there are some people using this to hop on board a "me too!" bandwagon, but that doesn't magically make actual cases of discrimination go away. Now I don't go around yelling "Help, help! I'm bein' repressed!" as I live in the Mecca of Lib'rulism and work in that hive of secularism, academia. (In some places, I'd say overt religiosity is less welcome than atheism.) But the story is totally different, say, in the Bible Belt. (Mostly, the question interests me because there seems to be a very different set of psychological phenomena in play when it comes to discrimination against atheists.)
  • All I'm seeing from TOP and WfG are "not as bad as" or "I don't see it, so it doesn't exist" arguments. See all the documentation I've provided, and I'll ditto Knight's and Blue's comments again. I think you guys would be singing a different tune if you lived somewhere else. That's about as clear as I can make myself here.
Nebuchadnezzar (talk)00:19, 16 July 2012
 
 
 
 
 
 

So who are atheists in the U.S.? 72% are white and 60% are men (at least according to a 2008 study). I think Godot is reacting to the fact that in the world of identity politics, lots of times people with multiple "oppressor" identities (white, male, straight, cis, etc.) like to exploit their one or two "oppressed" identities (atheist, in this case) to claim BUT I'M PERSECUTED TOO! DON'T DISMISS MY PLIGHT! To quote some blogger, "I side-eye the fuck out of any of the newer oppressions [referring to atheism, otherkin, etc.] that seem to be magically largely filled with white people... with no real body count to speak of."

Now, I think that this discourse falls victim to the not as bad as and no true Scotsman fallacies quite frequently, and is also overly Americentric. Even more than that, though... yes, oppression is an emergent phenomenon, but those who perpetuate it are individual people, not a White Borg or a Cis Borg. In certain areas and to certain people, I would be more frightened of judgment for coming out as atheist than for coming out as something with a much bigger macroscopic oppression problem.

Blue (is useful)20:32, 15 July 2012
 

Well, I was surprised when I read this, we in the UK are warned that we shouldn’t generalise about the United States. I know the USA is a vast country and there are big differences between different states and different areas. When people in the UK ask me about atheism in the USA I always tell them atheists are mostly treated OK in the more liberal areas but in other areas like the Bible belt especially rural parts of the Bible belt atheists can face big problems. Here I read a United States citizen who says she’s an academic generalising that, atheists don’t face severe discrimination. Frankly the situation is patchy, what happens to most American atheists is I’m sure Not as bad as what happened to Damon Fowler, see Damon Fowler and the Abuse of Church/State Plaintiffs. I’ll quote from the text above:-

  1. Fowler has been hounded, pilloried, and ostracized by his community.
  2. One of Fowler’s teachers has publicly demeaned him.
  3. Fowler has been physically threatened. Students have threatened to “jump him” at graduation practice, and he has received multiple threats of bodily harm, and even death threats.
  4. Fowler’s parents have cut off his financial support, kicked him out of the house, and thrown his belongings onto the front porch.

That last part is the most disgusting part of the whole thing. His own parents, for crying out loud. Unfortunately, this is not at all an unusual situation. In fact it is absolutely the norm for those who dare to speak out against Christian supremacy in similar cases and it has been for more than half a century.

Should I believe an anecdotal report from some alleged academic with an agenda or should I believe the printed text above? At risk that the academic will try and brand me an ignorant upstart I agree with the text. Atheists who stand up for their rights in the USA can face serious harassment, even persecution.

Proxima Centauri (talk)17:50, 16 July 2012

Seriously, proxie, what rights do Atheists not have, that we have to "stand up for?"

Forwler's case is extremely rares - and it hit the news and it's a big deal. There are 3 or 4 other cases, on going right now about people who have pissed off local governments by being atheist. is an exaggeration to say that "this is the norm for those who dare speak out against Christian supremacy". if it were the norm, the few cases like Fowlers would not make national news.

You can choose to believe who you want, but the vast majority of atheists out there in the US are not going to have experiences like Fowlers. Do they happen? Of course. But is it common? no. Is a kid who "comes out" as an atheists to his parents likely to face being tossed out, or disowned - no. Will they often be asked to go to church on xmas, yah. Will a religious mom or dad keep sending them bibles and telling them they are goign to hell? probably.

No one is saying it's going to be easy to be atheist in America. I'm saying the kinds of institutionalized and systematic discrimination you are pushing is an application of isolated events to paint a picture that serves a goal.

Green mowse.pngGodotQu'un sang impur abreuve nos sillons18:36, 16 July 2012