Talk:Deism/Archive1

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Cut

I have cut the following from the article page as I'm not quite sure what all this about the American Declaration of Independence has to do with the subject. It's also a bit hard to understand in places.--Bob^{bing up} 13:01, 4 November 2008 (EST)

Cut begins:

Jefferson created his own version of the Bible by using only the words of Jesus and omitting the rest, which is in print today in various versions.

It was Benjamin Franklin who edited out Thomas Jefferson's initial line: "We hold these truths to be sacred..." and changed it to: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..." So much for the theory of a Christian source for the founding document. Instead of being held up as sacred revealed truths, the rights are held up as purely intellectual axioms accepted by the founding fathers as the basis for rights.

Thomas Jefferson said that the Declaration of Independence was "an expression of the American mind." Now only if it was an expression of American faith, like the religious Right currently claims (and retrojects onto the document).

The word "God" in the Declaration of Independence is contentless, because the God of Christianity and Judaism and Islam grants no rights in the scriptures. There is only bald assertions by a group of men coming out of the Enlightenment period that a vague fuzzy deist "God" established the rights, and this is held as a matter of unquestioned self-evident truth, but there is nothing written in the "Judeo-Christian" scriptures to support it.

As a matter of fact, there is no such thing as a Judeo-Christian faith. The Jews serve Yahweh alone with all their heart and mind, while Christians believe no one comes to Yahwah except through his only Son. These two concepts cannot be comingled in a monstrosity such as a "Judeo-Christian faith". You are either one or the other. And some of the founding fathers were closer to the Jewish view of God as one. Jefferson was Unitarian.

Cut Ends.--Bob^{bing up} 13:01, 4 November 2008 (EST)

• Hmm, there are some things to be said about the material here, but it's not done in a very good style. Double carriage returns, or a side-by-side style, might be necessary if this was to be made into something more substantial. --Interpreted^{The stupid evil bastard hath said in his heart, 'there is no 4 corner simultaneous 4-day time cube'.}

But do you think the deism article is the place for it?--Bob^{bing up} 13:06, 4 November 2008 (EST)

• Don't we have some page somewhere to respond to Andy's 'Jefferson was more Christian than my mother, so eat that, anti-chivalry lieberals!' claims? --Interpreted^{The stupid evil bastard hath said in his heart, 'there is no 4 corner simultaneous 4-day time cube'.}

The middle part

It was Benjamin Franklin who edited out Thomas Jefferson's initial line: "We hold these truths to be sacred..." and changed it to: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..." So much for the theory of a Christian source for the founding document. Instead of being held up as sacred revealed truths, the rights are held up as purely intellectual axioms accepted by the founding fathers as the basis for rights.

Thomas Jefferson said that the Declaration of Independence was "an expression of the American mind." Now only if it was an expression of American faith, like the religious Right currently claims (and retrojects onto the document).

The word "God" in the Declaration of Independence is contentless, because the God of Christianity and Judaism and Islam grants no rights in the scriptures. There is only bald assertions by a group of men coming out of the Enlightenment period that a vague fuzzy deist "God" established the rights, and this is held as a matter of unquestioned self-evident truth, but there is nothing written in the "Judeo-Christian" scriptures to support it.

is word for word the same as an addition to Founding Fathers, where I copyedited it into something more like English. Here it just seems bizarre. Let's look at what was before and after it again to see if that part makes any sense... ħuman 14:20, 4 November 2008 (EST)

Weird. Teresita added that section on 9/29, and Kim added it to FF yesterday - before this discussion started. ħuman 14:23, 4 November 2008 (EST)

Clearly a remarkable coincidence of opinion. Or perhaps something to do with the Large Hadron Collider--Bob^{bing up} 14:49, 4 November 2008 (EST)

Convergence of deism and chaos theory?

I heard somewhere a variety of deist belief called chaos deism. This is a belief that while god creating the Big Bang and scientic processed, god in some cases subtly intervines through the chaos theory. The idea is many events can be caused an affected by innumerable subtile factors. The idea is since not all of them can be fully observed (see Hisenberg's principal), god may subtlly affect some of these factors, thereby god reacts with the world in a natural rather than supernatural way. This lines up with the idea many "miricles" in scripture were actually natursl events (god creates natural events by manipulating suddle factors). I personally agree but, can this be verified? ^{— Unsigned, by: 216.118.68.193 / talk / contribs}

I can't find any mention of "chaos deism" on the internet. What you're describing sounds more like theistic evolution or other theories of God working through natural processes. If God is interfering at any level, and especially creating "miracles", then it's theism rather than deism. Wēāŝēīōīď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 22:34, 26 January 2009 (EST)

The Jefferson Bible

I rolled back BoN's statement that Jefferson had edited the bible because, well, really... Silver Sloth (talk) 15:04, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

It's true that Jefferson made his own "edited" Bible (just Jesus' sayings, IIRC). The rest of what BON typed... well... yeah. ħuman 21:22, 15 July 2009 (UTC)