Talk:Holocaust

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Auschwitz

Could someone who knows more about this than me help make a distinction between the two Auschwitz's? I don't know much, except that the one we mostly think of was a concentration/work camp, and the other one was an actual death camp. I bring this up because many people like to say that most of those who died at Auschwitz died of malnutrition or some such, allowing the confusion between the two camps to confuse those who are arguing with them. Researcher 05:36, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Rabbi Moshe Shonfeld's research found that many leading Zionists supported the Holocaust

According to the research of Rabbi Moshe Shonfeld, many leading Zionists supported the Holocaust, both directly and indirectly, in order to justify the establishment of the "State of Israel". Rabbi Moshe Shonfeld, The Holocaust Victims Accuse: Documents and Testimony on Jewish War Criminals, part 1, Bnei Yeshivos, New York, 1977. I have provided a link to his work, you can read it for yourself. Should I be surprised that you are trying to silence him? TruePhilosemite (talk) 10:32, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

So, no one has come forth to debunk Rabbi Shonfeld's research? Could it be that RABBI SHONFELD IS RIGHT? Can the article be updated now to add the findings of his research? TruePhilosemite (talk) 07:49, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

No-one has really debunked [Dan Brown]'s crap either, should we update his article likewise? Scream!! (talk) 09:50, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

It's been two days! Patience!--Spud (talk) 11:15, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Death Toll Statistics

There appears to be a discrepancy between the statistics cited on Wikipedia and the ones cited on this page (which may lead to some confusion among sad pedantic individuals like me who feel a weird OCD drive to double check random numbers once in a while).

The source we have under reference 7 in RW's article says this: "From 1933 to 1944, the Nazis convicted and sent to concentration camps tens of thousands of men on charges of homosexuality. There they were humiliated, tortured, subjected to medical experimentation, and killed. An estimated 5000 to 15,000 homosexuals perished behind barbed-wire fences during the Holocaust. " which suggests a death toll of 5,000 - 15,000 as written.

It says on Wikipedia: "Most of these men served time in regular prisons, and an estimated 5,000 to 15,000 of those sentenced were incarcerated in Nazi concentration camps.[1] It is unclear how many of the 5,000 to 15,000 eventually perished in the camps, but leading scholar Rüdiger Lautmann believes that the death rate of homosexuals in concentration camps may have been as high as 60%."

One of their sources appears to be the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, which says: "Analyses of fragmentary records suggest that between 5,000 and 15,000 homosexual men were imprisoned in concentration camps, where many died from starvation, disease, exhaustion, beatings, and murder."

That 60% number apparently comes from the study linked here: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/gaycomp.html

I haven't taken the time to check the study for scientific correctness or anything like that (it's a rather long read), but I get the feeling that the source we have under reference 7 may be the less reliable one as compared to the other sources.

Thoughts? Nullahnung (talk) 07:09, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I quickly read through that essay by Rüdiger Lautmann. I kinda wish he would just get to the point and not have to justify his investigations against all these fears every time, but such is the mine field nature of the topic. Presently I don't really see any other faults with his data, but I am no expert in social sciences. Still, I would suggest to include his findings in the death toll section and a ref. Nullahnung (talk) 10:50, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Go ahead, seems fair enough at first glance. The Invisible Man^{I spoke to Him} 13:09, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Nakba

I've removed the reference to Nakba because it's not really germane to this article. It smells of someone trying to wrap a political cause in the flag of Nazi victimhood. There were many, many, political and historical forces at play which led to the tragic situation now faced by the Palestinian people -- to tag it on as one sentence to the end of a paragraph about Auschwitz is intellectually dishonest. TeenageWasteland (talk) 13:38, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. The Irgun and Yishuv attacks against Palestinians were ongoing during the Holocaust. Expuslion was being considered as early as the 1920s. Plus the main waves of fleeing occured within 3 years of the end of th Holocaust. As a compromise i will consider adding it to the previous paragraph. Pass a Method (talk) 14:29, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

1. Lots of things were ongoing during the Holocaust. Doesn't mean they belong in this article. 2. Thank you for undermining your argument for me and making my point: a process that was being considered in the 1920s cannot reasonably be framed as a direct consequence of something that happened in the 1940s. It was, as you so eloquently show, more complicated than the simple cause-and-effect model you are trying to set up in a largely irrelevant article. TeenageWasteland (talk) 14:34, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

3. Update: 3. You're arguing that increased Jewish migration caused the Nakba, as though it made future events historically inevitable. The Nakba was the result of a myriad of decisions taken by actors on both the Israeli and Palestinian/Arab sides. There was nothing inevitable about it. Numbers, the the role of the Holocaust in providing those numbers, were but one of many factors. TeenageWasteland (talk) 16:58, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Actually it was due to Zionist ethnic cleansing. 208.54.35.134 16:40, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Comment from Facebook

The section on "origin of the term" for "the holocaust" is dead wrong. No one seems to be quite sure where it comes from but it definitely wasn't coined in the 70s

https://newrepublic.com/article/121807/when-holocaust-became-holocaust

Mʀ. Wʜɪsᴋᴇʀs, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 01:05, 15 October 2018 (UTC)