Talk:Juche

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Fascism?

North Korean experts do not call North Korea fascism. Even B.R. Myers, a leading scholar who analyzed that North Korea was influenced by Japanese fascism, concluded that North Korea had no imperialist or expansionist elements and was not a fascist state.

Fascists claim their Volk's superiority and therefore believe they have the right to occupy other countries. North Korea has no territorial greed outside of the South and does not claim that its Minjok is superior.

Myers is the author of The Cleanest Race. Myers said:

Everyone is more than welcome to disagree with my assertion that North Korea is “at the very least, ideologically closer to America’s adversaries in World War II than to communist China and Eastern Europe” (TCR 16). They may challenge also my characterization of the North as a far-right state, keeping in mind, I hope, that there’s much more to far-rightism than fascism. See the Nationalkonservativen in Weimar Germany. #

Of course I don't like Myers. Even scholars who point out the similarity between North Korea and fascism should make it clear that they do not define North Korea as fascism. Umaru16 (talk) 21:58, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

The point of Myers book was to argue that North Korean Juche has more in common with Japanese Fascism than communism. Even if Juche isn't a form of fascism, it has hallmarks similar to fascism.

Also, I don't think anyone should take what you say seriously since you downplayed crimes against Japan in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and just insert your own views and opinions in the subject. Rational Dude (talk) 22:10, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

This article has nothing to do with the Hiroshima article. And it is not a consensus view in academia that Hiroshima is a crime.

It is a general academic view that North Korea is a communist country, and B.R. Myers' view is not as mainstream as Bruce Cummings' view. Bruce Cummings found the reason for the outbreak of the Korean War in that the U.S. formed the South Korean government with collaborators during the Japanese Empire, especially the Japanese forces that tried to kill Kim Il-sung in Manchuria became the ROK's main soldiers. I'm basically a supporter of Bruce Cummings. Umaru16 (talk) 22:33, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Umaru16 is correct that there's academic contention over whether or not Juche is a fascist ideology, but Juche has a distinctly racialized component to it that's more akin to fascism than general Marxism-Leninism. Perhaps a better category for it is third positionism? Carthage (talk) 22:58, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Maybe, but at least keep fascism as a category for the sake of similarities. Rational Dude (talk) 23:03, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Fascist politics tend to appeal to the middle class, whereas Juche is explicitly proletarian (at least in theory), though it does have macho aspects to it. Like with the nuclear posturing, and while it isn't expansionistic it does have a Great Other to it, in this case Americans, South Koreans, NATO, and the Japanese. Carthage (talk) 23:14, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I think anti-American and anti-Japanese sentiment in North Korea is anti-imperialism based on socialism. Far left forces in South Africa also use racist rhetoric against white people. Unlike East Germany, North Korea does not have Soviet troops. Their very strong anti-Japanese sentiment makes it rather awkward to compare it to Japanese fascism. Myers' analysis is wrong Umaru16 (talk) 23:34, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Korean nationalism is not as harmful as Japanese nationalism. German nationalists or Japanese nationalists are clearly colonial and anti-proletarian. Left-wing nationalism cannot be established in Germany or Japan, but it can be established in North Korea. Anti-Japanese Korean nationalism is anti-imperialist anti-colonialism, North Korea's anti-American sentiment is also a antipathy to hegemony, and a proletarian grudge against war crimes committed by the United States during the Korean War. Japan colonized South and North Korea and invaded the United States, but North Korea did not invade the United States or Japan. Left-wing nationalism is not fascism or third positionism. Umaru16 (talk)

I think China is more of a fascist country than North Korea. As South Korean leftists want, the United States should sign a peace agreement with North Korea. If peace on the Korean Peninsula is found, North Korea will become a pro-U.S. state. Korean nationalists hate China as much as Japan does. Japan and China have always been invaders. Biden should meet Kim Jong-un. Biden should meet with Kim Jong-un, ignoring all the malicious views of far-right anti-North Korean Yoon Suk Yeol and Japanese right-wing LDP politicians on North Korea. Umaru16 (talk) 23:49, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

North Korea is ethnically homogenous, although they don't really believe in strength and pride from the korean race, But still, North Korea is more or less an ethnostate like China and Israel. Rational Dude (talk) 23:57, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Yeah, but that kind of handwaves away Umaru's criticisms without addressing them. I do think there's a difference between the nationalism of the colonized vs the nationalism of the colonizers. As for North Korea vs the US, I'm going to quote my critique on the Korean Friendship Association talk page:

I think a point can be made about the unfair treatment of North Korea given that we fully support the Saudis while continuing to punish the people of North Korea with crippling sanctions. Yeah their rulers hoard all the resources but due to the sanctions the people of North Korea get even less than they would otherwise have. All the while sanctions continue to do jackshit about North Korean policies, seeing as they don't care about them but they do care about what happens to rivals of the United States who denuclearize. The Kims saw what happened to Libya and Iraq. The only real way to deal with the situation is to deal with them. Trump actually saw to initiate actual dialogue with them. Kudos to the literal fascist for doing the one thing that the past decades of liberal rule were unable to do. North Korea's not gonna denuclearize, and the sanctions are useless except as a way to punish the "starving people of North Korea" even further. None of this absolves the Kim regime by any means (going to stop any poisoning of the well attacks from the get-go), but it certainly is bad form to absolve the US of its part to play in the Korea situation.

I'm not going to deny that the Kim regime is harmful, it obviously is, but I don't agree that it's equivalent to Imperial Japan for the clear reason that Imperial Japan is a colonizing superpower, and North Korea is an isolationist regime born out of resistance to said colonialism. Carthage (talk) 00:06, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

You could argue that the US-backed Saudis are even worse than North Korea is cuz the Saudis are engaging in imperialistic overtures in Yemen and elsewhere. North Korea has supported leftist resistance movements in the past, yes, but not in any way to exert colonial hegemony over them in the way the Saudis are. Geopolitics unfortunately isn't determined by morality, but by national interests. Carthage (talk) 00:11, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

@Rational Dude North Korea has never claimed a "[Korean] race" (인종). BR Myers is an extreme anti-North Korean scholar, so he makes the wrong translation. minjok (민족) means "ethnic". In the Korean language, "race" is referred to as injong (인종) rather than minjok (민족). South Korea's military government suppressed the lefist minjok movement in support of pro-American/Japanese nationalism. (Of course, the military government did not deny the Minjok concept, but transformed it in their own way.) South Korean pro-democracy activists, SK liberals and Korean leftists tend to emphasize minjok more. South Korean conservatives do not support minjok. Umaru16 (talk) 02:15, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

The Minjok movement is clearly based on ethnic nationalism, but it is not an ideology that discriminates against Thais or blacks, but rather conservatives who denounce it as "ethnic nationalism" are more likely Xenophobic racists than South Korean leftists who support the Minjok movement. I think an overly American interpretation of Korean politics is harmful. Minjok is a decolonized concept to liquidate the remnants of Japanese colonialism and South/North military hostility through the Korean unification. Umaru16 (talk) 02:19, 7 August 2023 (UTC)