Talk:Non-materialist neuroscience

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materialism, computationalism and scientific neurology[edit]

There seem to be two or three unstated assumptions in the article (and too few references to philosophically astute neurologists who publish neuro research) which is troubling: one is the belief that current neurology either is the result of a "materialist" research program or paradigm or that it is somehow a vindication of philosophical materialism. That there is no need for a "soul substance" in neuroscience is in no way a vindication of materialist metaphysics simply because a scientific "refutation" of dualism does not do the work the authors seem to suppose. If metaphysics is about our most general assumptions and presuppositions with regard to knowledge, values and ethics then it is simply false to think that science without the "soul" and "spirit" and "gods" - whether neuroscience or cosmology - is a vindication of a form of monism called "materialism". It might be sobering to read the work on "scientific materialism" in old Soviet or Soviet-sphere articles as a refresher in this regard. If you take the case of philosophers such as John Searle, you will find a non-dualist who is not a proponent of your claims for computational modelling. The eventual triumph of connectionism, computationalism or some other approach in dominating some area of neuroscience will not likely shed much light on your preferred metaphysics of materialism. If this is not obvious to you, then consider that an ontology consistent with values being real is perfectly consistent with your preferred neuro-scientific leanings (I lean to connectionism) but is not consistent with the monism of materialism. For years it was common to hear assertions made about the General Theory of Relativity which are known not to be consistent with mathematical results - in spite of the excellent confirmations of the theory and those expected from the Gravity-Probe B data. And that includes views expressed by none other than a prominent GTR theorist gone over to neuroscience. It is only recently that neuroscience and neuro-psychology have been openly discussing consciousness, beliefs and emotions and it is far too early to think that neuro-imaging alone will win the day for materialism as an ontology for neuroscience. One non-dualist philosopher with views very close to those of, say, António Damásio, is none other than Heiddeger writing on "Stimmung" - and although not a dualist, Heidegger was no materialist. Some ardent neuro-materialists share the view of metaphysical committments of R.G. Collingwood - views that are not likely to entertain seriously that the vindication of materialism is to come from neuroscience. This century will be the century of biology - and perhaps the century of dark-matter physics. This will not ensure that it will be a century in which materialism triumphs as the metaphysics of science if only because science has thus far required mathematics - and that is a trouble spot for materialist metaphysics. The computationalism of the past few decades has also not been free of philosophical bias - and it may require a change of generations at MIT and Stanford before a shift occurs which reflects the changing currents in mathematical thought. Removing "soul substance" from your thinking will not take you very far and has played a curious role in neuroscience: the aversion to "mind" and its connotations has hampered science by impairing research concerning the very nature of human experience and the critical stages of the evolution of a species capable of entertaining and sustaining science let alone explaining the grave dangers facing science in cultures and societies hostile to scientific inquiry and philosophy. Among philosphers, Susanne Langer saw some of these issues years ago and is a philosopher worth reading in this regard. Various authors have examined the impact of "materialist" behaviorism in retarding scientific research and theory. Medical "materialism" is likely the culprit in delaying a good deal of research including simple reflex learning tests to detect consciousness in "non-responsive" patients. Materialist assumptions may not always have served science as well as you imagine: not in economics and not in psychology. The jury is out on computationalism. — Unsigned, by: Husserlian / talk / contribs 04:22, 10 December 2009‎ (UTC)

The evidence is there on the wall, there is nothing for philosophy to poke holes into. The brain is essentially responsible for everything we previously took to be the mind and neuro-imaging does in fact vindicate materialism as in the past no one could possibly know what was responsible for our actions,but now we know. Mathematics is also, as far as I know, not a problem for materialist metaphysics.Machina (talk) 21:36, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

A lot of research is there. Whether it is evidence that only neurology is needed to explain all psychological phenomena remains to be seen - so far neurology can't even explain a lot of neurological phenomena. Gcolvin (talk) 03:11, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

aging critique of aging material[edit]

This article is getting rather old and useless, with not much here but take-downs of one blog post and one scientific article, both some 15 years old. This article should be brought up to date if we are to claim after all these years that we are still dealing with "a reactionary, anti-science movement - like creationism and intelligent design." Takes more than a blog post to make for a movement. Failing that, it is not of enough current interest to keep featuring on the "Cover." Gcolvin (talk) 03:11, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

The Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society is a peer-reviewed scientific journal[edit]

The oldest and still one of the most prestigious scientific journals. So "Schwartz, J. M., Stapp, H. & Beauregard, M. Quantum physics in neuroscience and psychology: a neurophysical model of mind-brain interaction. Philosophical Transactions of The Royal Society B: Biological Sciences" is a peer reviewed scientific paper. Therefore the distinction between Beauregards's science and philosophy publications is bogus.

I'll wait a while before trying to make a minimal change. Gcolvin (talk) 05:24, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

I made that change, and related ones. Made it more clear that Schwartz et al. is a peer-reviewed scientific paper, so it won't get edited out again. Cleaned up references to Beauregard that should have been to Schwartz et al. Added brief info about Schwartz and Stapp's credentials, as we already have for Beauregard. Chased down the paper by Stapp that Streater was actually criticizing, and Stapp's reply. Cleaned up some links. Gcolvin (talk) 20:27, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

This page reads like a typical staunch materialist rant[edit]

Claims to be called "rational wiki", yet has an undoubtedly bias tone against anything that challenges materialism. Read about the page on Daniel Dennett and he got compared with Russell in the first sentence. LOL!!! What can i say. While i see intolerant dickheads on both sides, I find the other side to have a lot less of them than materialists. Maybe materialism turns out to be correct, but are u idiots who wrote this article SERIOUSLY going to deny property dualism? Even most materialist biologists aren't that retarded. I wont be reading any more garbage from this site. Generic eliminative materialist nonsense.— Unsigned, by: Coping manlet / talk / contribs

kthnxbai.--JorisEnter (talk) 12:49, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
Oh, and before I forget:
"But I thought this was supposed to be RATIONALWiki!" Drink!--JorisEnter (talk) 12:49, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
This was actually the more unusual suggestion that in spite of its name, RationalWiki might not actually be called that. (talk) 14:59, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

I am wondering what are the academic credentials of the individual(s) who wrote this article? It is misleading to say that Beauregard merely has a PHD in psychology as if to imply he is a psychologist who has a naive and rudimentary understanding of neural mechanisms when his doctorate was in fact in neuroscience.

Is this article written by someone who has the relevant academic background that entails a deeper understanding than a layman who is merely parroting what they have read in popular science books or are they academics of subjects that entail knowledge about the brain such as Psychiatry or Neurology. In other words shouldn't it take a neuroscientist to scrutinise a neuroscientist? Question4477 (talk) 10:47, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

There we go. @Question4477 I fixed it for you. —ClickerClock (talk) 10:50, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
You might want to check out this which tells you about authors and has other interesting information about the site.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 07:19, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

I appreciate the prompt reply and I read up on the page you provided, to my understanding the intent of rational wiki is not to be impartial like an encyclopedia but rather a materialist journal that actively refutes topics that are rejected by the scientific community.

The difference with wikipedia is that they quote what various experts have to say on the subject and compare them side by side in the form of appraisal and criticism.

With rational wiki the articles are written by those preserving their anonymity often making scathing attacks on subjects and individuals, if it is the case of a layman criticising Beauregard then it doesn't make sense - It is someone scrutinising the work of someone who knows what they are talking about versus someone who doesn't.

Question4477 (talk) 17:05, 22 October 2017 (UTC)Question4477Question4477 (talk) 17:05, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

And you believe credentials are what validate or invalidate Beauregard's work or its criticism ? tmtoulouse 20:41, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
That's sort of the problem with being "neutral" like wikipedia is that you inadvertently give credence to bad ideas. Wikipedia is just an information source and therefor is not allowed to pick a side. However that doesn't mean that some of the ideas archived there which were mentioned by others are correct or true, they merely just say what they are. Also some individuals on that site are given more credit than they reasonably deserve.Machina (talk) 21:40, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Mental illness?[edit]

The subject of mental illness does deliver a blow to NMN. Schizophrenia, for example, is associated with irregular activity in the frontal lobes, hippocampus and temporal lobes of the brain. I feel like this is an important aspect the article doesn't mention. I'll probably do this myself later on, but for now I'll just mention psychiatric medication. Ibrahim Moizoos (talk) 15:21, 25 February 2018 (UTC)