Talk:Raw milk movement/Archive1

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Listeria

Listeria is one of the bacterial strain known to be a contaminant in raw milk. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listeria. Hamster (talk) 03:27, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip-off. I've added it. Lord Goonie ^{Hooray! I'm helping!} 03:30, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Wait, raw milk contains mouthwash? ħuman 09:19, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Germ theory denial

I'm flicking through the webshites and can't find a direct reference to this. It would be useful. They do sometimes misunderstand it, howver. ^narchist 20:20, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Maybe it could be changed, then. I actually cut that portion from the "Raw milk" subsection that used to be in our Raw foodism article when I merged it with my original stuff to make a normal article. Gooniepunk2010 ^{Oi! Oi! Oi!} 22:05, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Nevermind, I found an example we can use until or unless we find a better example. The Spikey Punk ^{I'm punking my punk!} 22:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Not Always Dangerous

I've been drinking and using raw milk for several years now and have never experianced any ill effects of raw milk. Milk only becomes laden with bacterial crap when cows are kept on massive commerical dairy farms in poor conditions. If they are given a healthy diet and kept in good conditions then the raw milk is safe. More importantly too, raw milk tastes alot better!--BenB (talk) 17:44, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Just because you haven't experienced any ill effects doesn't make it safe.--MJMelcher (talk) 18:16, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Never said it all was. I said it CAN be safe as long as it is done properly. I would be lothe to drink raw milk from most factory farms but from a farm that specializes in it it can be. I have been drinking it for five years. You would think it may have made me sick at least once wouldnt you?--BenB (talk) 18:20, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

There have been hospitalizations due to bacteria in milk from farms that specialize in raw milk. If I find a person who has been having unprotected sex for years, and has not had an STD, does that make it safe?--MJMelcher (talk) 18:27, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I remember a case in the UK where a Scottish farmer was complaining about enforced pasteurisation of his cows' milk even though bacterial assays showed that his unpasteurised product had less bacteria than commercial pasteurised milk. A lot of it is due to poor animal husbandry, one of the side effects of having to deliver to a low-priced mass-market. And unprotected sex is safe withih the confines of a stable monogamous relationship.  Lily ^{Inspirate me.} 18:31, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I will quote PalMD on his blog as my retort, "It would be lovely if any of that were true, but it's not. Of course, it's not the milk per se that makes you sick but the bacteria in it. "Grass-fed milk" does not have any magical antibiotic properties, and consuming "pro-biotics" will not protect you from Campylobacter, E. coli, or other common milk-borne pathogens." - PalMD

Conservative Punk (talk) 06:32, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Yeah Unprotected sex can be safe as long as you are smart about your partners. Thats the point I was trying to make. Raising your animals well will yield healthy and safe drinking milk. Factory farms do more harm than good--BenB (talk) 18:58, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

You're right. No farm specializing in raw milk has ever caused an outbreak of disease linking to the raw milk. Conservative Punk (talk) 06:20, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Anybody else get the urge to hit "edit" and italicise E. coli in that article? ħuman 22:09, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

"State investigators went back to the Michael Hartmann farm in Gibbon a second time last Wednesday to collect more samples, confiscate financial records, and document what they allege are unsanitary conditions on the farm." And your point is what exactly?  Lily ^{Inspirate me.} 07:32, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

In the context in which I wrote it, it was my backup to the fact that, just because it's from a so-called "family farm," it doesn't make it any better than from a so-called "factory farm." Hartmann's farm was a family farm, but did that make it more sanitary than an agribusiness? No. In fact, in this case, it was quite the opposite. Conservative Punk (talk) 07:50, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

CP's point is pretty solid here. ħuman 08:52, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

(EC) It has nothing to do with whether it is a family farm or not, the point is that poor practices contributed to the outbreak. I'm not saying that all raw milk production is good quality, it depends entirely on the farmer. Even when food is cooked there are cases of food poisoning caused by subsequent cross-contamination, i.e. poor practices or conditions. Unfortunately the scale of mass-production makes it more difficult to maintain a high standard across the board, so the majority of milk does need to be pasteurised. That does not mean that some (but not all) small-scale producers can not produce milk that has not been contaminated, just like any other foodstuff.  Lily ^{Inspirate me.} 09:05, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

(unindent) While you make a valid point there, Lily, it's just that milk production is an inherently filthy industry. Pasteurization was the fix for contamination that occurred at the cow. The only way to go about it, other than disinfecting the milk like pasteurization, would be to milk the cow in a "clean room" setting, similar to an operating room. The only problem there, however, is that that still doesn't fix the problem of bacteria and viruses excreted by the cow itself into the milk. The Spikey Punk ^{I'm punking my punk!} 20:08, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Just because you HAVE experienced an ill effect doesn't make it unsafe. And I am talking about pasteurized milk here; there have been many reports of sicknesses coming from pasteurized milk. This article makes me laugh; it takes the point of view of pasteurized milk as the standard, when it is raw milk that is the standard, from which we get pasteurized milk. I would like to point out that the human race existed before Louis Pasteur, and that they weren't dropping dead from milk. The fact that raw milk is 'laden' with bacteria comes from studies on milk taken from factory cows, which are raised in nasty environments and thus produce nasty milk that has to be pasteurized. I drink raw milk that comes from cows that graze on beautiful, natural, CLEAN fields. And yes, just because I haven't experienced any ill effects DOES make it safe. That's the very definition of safe.^{— Unsigned, by: 98.70.180.6 / talk / contribs}

And there are people who've NOT gotten vaccinated who've not contracted smallpox, but does that make NOT getting vaccinated safe? The funniest part is that you accuse the article of using the POV of pasteurized milk as the standard (IT IS!!!) and then you attack it with your own POV, when we all know that double-blind scientific research (as has been done numerous times on pasteurized milk) is far stronger than your, and the raw milk movement in general's, anecdotal evidence. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 04:35, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

You are aware that about 99% of milk before pasturzation was turned into cheese, not drunk? --Revolverman (talk) 00:45, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Oh, silly children!--Token Conservative (talk) 00:35, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

This article's rank on google

This article is in the top 10 pages on google for "raw milk movement" searches. Lord of the Goons ^{The official spikey-haired skeptical punk} 22:04, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Dunno what of, but it needs MOAR to be a good bronze - David Gerard (talk) 22:19, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it needs a bit of work still. I will hack away at it once these thunderstorms roll in in a few hours. AnarchoGoon ^{Swatting Assflys is how I earn my living} 22:21, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Real life example of consuming raw milk section

Looks like baseless anecdotal evidence to me. Unless someone can clarify what's presented in that paragraph and back it up with trustworthy citations, I'm inclined to unleash ti completely. Especially since it's somewhat incoherent. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 04:24, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

To clarify: farmers usually check their milk for taste to ensure the cow doesn't eat the wrong stuff when they aren't looking, due to their perception that what the cow eats reflects in the taste of the milk. When the milk are usually collectively (from multiple farms) pasteurized, some (especially of the older generations) would do QA by tasting the raw milk (at least before they got money for fancy testing equipment anyway).

In addition, how would the milk be tested for quality before pasteurization is known? [[User:K61824|]][[User_talk:K61824|]] 00:22, 17 August 2012 (UTC)