Talk:Robert Sungenis

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What the article needs[edit]

What the article needs: Why did the SPLC put him on their shit list? Is it because of specific publications/acts/speeches, what? There are lots of antisemites out there, they don't all get targeted by the SPLC. TeenageWasteland (talk) 15:18, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

I'll try and research that but Sungenis has taken a lot of his sh*t offline and links to archives where it's still accessible would help. Proxima Centauri (talk) 15:44, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
It looks like Sungenis will be doing far more about geocentrism for the moment so perhaps we should pay some attention to that. Proxima Centauri (talk) 16:48, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Which is why perhaps the current author of most of the article (i.e. you) should have emphasized that fact before going on tangents about antisemitism.--ZooGuard (talk) 16:59, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
there was a section of geocentrism when I wrote the article. I restored it, it's been removed again. Proxima Centauri (talk) 15:09, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

SuzanneCampbell's edits[edit]

Here is the explanation of the edits I just made:

Antisemitism

The accusations are simply false. Sungenis is not an antisemite. He has stated himself, numerous times, that he is not an antisemite, and that he loves the Jewish people. What Sungenis is against are Zionists. If you want to call him an anti-Zionist, that is appropriate, but he is not an anti-semite. An anti-semite is a person who despises the Jewish race, simply because it is Jewish. An anti-Zionist is a person who disagrees with the politics of Zionism, but does not despise the Jewish people as a race.

Holocaust denier

Sungenis is not a “holocaust denier.” He considers it a historical fact that Jewish people were wrongfully incarcerated and murdered by the Germans and other nations during WWII. Rather, Sungenis has questioned the validity of the number “6 million” as the total amount of Jews who were murdered. He does so because there is credible evidence that the number has been exaggerated. For example, the Nizkor Project (http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/4-million-variant) has shown that the number of victims at Auschwitz has been reduced from 4 million to 1 million by the Polish authorities who are the curators of the camp. Accordingly, the plaque outside Auschwitz was changed several years ago to reflect the reduction from 4 million to 1 million.

International Jewish Conspiracy Crank

Sungenis is not an “international Jewish conspiracy crank.” As noted above, he has written in the past against Zionism, not against the Jewish race.

Psuedoscience

Sungenis is not a promoter of “pseudoscience.” He uses modern science to provide alternative scientific interpretation to cosmological evidence. For example, Sungenis cites two famous physicists who show that his approach to the evidence is viable (even though they disagree with the outcome Sungenis proposes). For example Einstein stated: “The struggle, so violent in the early days of science, between the views of Ptolemy and Copernicus would then be quite meaningless. Either coordinate system could be used with equal justification. The two sentences: ‘the sun is at rest and the Earth moves,’ or ‘the sun moves and the Earth is at rest,’ would simply mean two different conventions concerning two different coordinate systems" (The Evolution of Physics: From Early Concepts to Relativity and Quanta, Albert Einstein and Leopold Infeld, 1938, 1966, p. 212); Stephen Hawking stated: “So which is real, the Ptolemaic or Copernican system? Although it is not uncommon for people to say that Copernicus proved Ptolemy wrong, that is not true….one can use either picture as a model of the universe, for our observations of the heavens can be explained by assuming either the earth or the sun to be at rest. (The Grand Design, Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow, NY, Bantam, 2010, p. 41). Those who seek to categorize his efforts as “pseudoscience” are actually engaging in academic suppression and thought-crime tactics to silence the alternatives.

CIU characterised as diploma mill

CIU is not a “diploma mill.” A diploma mill is a colloquial term used for an unethical institution that illegally issues pieces of paper with the word “diploma” stating that a person has obtained a degree without the person showing any qualifications for the degree or doing any work for the degree. CIU requires its Ph.D. candidates to have the appropriate prerequisite degrees (BA or MA) and do the same rigorous work for a Ph.D. degree as other research degree programs common in Europe. The candidate is required to do an extensive dissertation, which is then judged by a select committee of Ph.Ds in that field. An academic advisor familiar with the subject material is also assigned to the candidate. CIU is authorized to grant degrees by the governmental authority of the Republic of Vanuatu, where CIU is domiciled. The Republic of Vanuatu, like Denmark, does not require its degree-conferring institutions to have accreditation with a government entity. Hence, the degrees of CIU are legal degrees and it is not a diploma mill.

The sources listed by Wiki to make the charges against CIU are unqualified and unauthorized. Footnote 2 cites a BOLDWIN ANUGWARA but he holds no recognized governmental authority to make any such claims. Moreover, Mr. Anugwara only says:, “thes [sic] are the names of the suspected fake institutions...” That is, he only “suspects” and is not making a definitive conclusion. Additionally, his accusations don’t apply to CIU:


Diploma Mills:

As noted above, CIU is not a diploma mill.



They don’t have the authority to issue degrees even though, both the NUC the federal Ministry of Education have variously condemned their activities for:

CIU has been granted the authority of the Republic of Vanuatu to issue degrees.



They are not officially accredited:

The Republic of Vanuatu does not require its academic institutions to have “official accreditation” from another government in order to issue degrees.



They have already been closed by governments:

CIU has never been closed down by any government



They issue degrees that are recognized nowhere, besides one or two exceptions:

It doesn’t matter whether any other country accepts them. They are legal degress from the Republic of Vanuatu and are not from a diploma mill. In any case, degree-holding CIU students can have credits transferred to other degree holding programs by means of an apostille, which is stated on the CIU website.



Also note: membership of an association is not the same as having an accreditation of that organization:

CIU is not a member of an “association.” CIU is privately accredited by the International Association of Distance Learning, an organization which has recognized the Republic of Vanuatu’s authority to allow CIU to issue degrees.SuzanneCampbell (talk) 16:39, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Not all coordinate systems are created equal. One can certainly derive a reference frame in which the Earth is the stationary centre of the universe, but that would entirely change the mathematics required to predict orbital motion of other bodies. Have you ever seen even the basic equations of motion of a body moving in a straight line at constant velocity in a rotating reference frame? The fact that we can accurately predict orbital motion without adding additional terms to account for a rotating reference frame suggests that we are not, in fact, in such a frame, and heliocentrism is the way to go. I have nothing to say about your other issues, so I will leave that to others who are more knowledgeable in those areas. - Grant (talk) 17:08, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
--> EC. Wikipedia's article on this guy has numerous cites from credible sources -- mostly the SPLC-- on obviously anti-semitic statements this guy has made. When I have some time, I will port them over here. Anyone who promotes geocentrism is dealing in pseudoscience. No debate possible here. Who is "International Association of Distance Learning," and why should we take what they say seriously? TeenageWasteland (talk) 17:10, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
Jews are not a race but a religion; Israelites are a race, loosely, but so are Arabs as Semites.
Narrowly, any one-body-centric model is wrong as it defies Newton's action-reaction law. Earth has finite mass and must move in concert with other masses; as must the sun. The focus of the sun-earth orbit is within the sun thanks to the latter's mass, but not within the sun's barýcentron. Lysdexia (talk) 18:36, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia page[edit]

Apparently the same SuzanneCampbell handle has tried to change Robert Sungenis' page on Wikipedia using more or less the same arguments as above. As this handle did not succeed in tgetting the wanted changes the handle Robert Sungenis took over the crusade. --188.155.141.33 (talk) 19:47, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Atheist fundamentalists[edit]

Why debate here? it's obvious these people are fundamentalist atheists and they won't consider a different opinion. This site is entirely devoted to side with the mainstream ideas no matter what, i would just leave honestly. — Unsigned, by: 213.165.184.115 / talk / contribs

Thank you for your incoherent feedback. Cosmikdebris (talk) 15:31, 12 September 2019 (UTC)