Talk:Sex and gender in sport/Archive1

Doping

Steroid use is relevant here, especially in the Olympics. The trans athlete paranoia is particularly interesting in that its proponents are largely outsiders to the world of professional sports, and show it through their lack of concern for pre-existing problems such as doping and other forms of cheating. I'd also like to point out that the usual bad faith actors in the international sports world aren't rushing to grab up trans and intersex athletes, and in fact are quite hostile towards such groups. _{CoughRussiacough}. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 16:35, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Could be worth mentioning with regards to Russia. Trans participation in the Olympics has been allowed since 2004, you'd think a bad-faith actor would have taken advantage of it by now. Get ready, it's... (talk) 16:55, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Good to Go?

I feel like we could drop the History section, seeing as we cover the relevant stuff in the intro paragraph. Unless anyone has any particular historical cases or notes they want to make, I vote we move this over to the main-space soon. Get ready, it's... (talk) 16:55, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Outside the Olympics, almost all professional sports are actually divided by "Women only" and "Anyone". Very few sports prevent women from competing with men if the woman chooses and can qualify. Referring to the NHL or the NBA as "Men's Hockey" or "Men's Basketball" is just a convention. I feel like there should be some discussion on that. - Immigrant laborer (talk) 20:02, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

'if the woman choses and can qualify' for the more physical sports involving brute power this would make women completely absent from many sports entirely. probably not so much an issue for snooker or darts though AMassiveGay (talk) 20:28, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Probably. Recently a few women have entered top, non-gendered pro tournaments in snookers and darts (no tournament winners but in darts Fallon Sherrock made it to the third round in 2019). I imagine in sports where sheer physical power is less of an issue, it is very possible to eventually not have as much gender-separated competition (at least, once you get rid of the bullshit sexist crud that *still* is hanging around -- local men-only snooker leagues still exist in 2019, for instance). The first sport I can think of with females competing at very high levels is American drag racing, pioneered by a combination of Shirley Muldowney winning three top fuel championships in the late 1970s, and one of the giants of NHRA drag racing, John Force, having three daughters who all ended up competing as drag racers at a top level. Upon further research, equestrian eventing is also very much a mixed gender sport these days. All of these don't have *quite* as much of the chest-physical or leg power stuff that makes it very difficult, if not impossible, for women to compete at the tip top level in other sports. I'm willing to bet there are others out there that are more gender separated due to tradition than anything else -- sports like basketball and hockey, certainly men have a physical advantage, but is there any reason for gender separation in a sport like, say, curling? PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 21:26, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps we could have a section on Trans-men specifically? It is notable that conservative-media hysteria focuses on trans-women and often tries to pretend that trans-men do not seek to participate in men's division in sport. What discussion would you like to see @Immigrant laborer? Get ready, it's... (talk) 22:40, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

I've been wrestling with this internally offline and... I got nothing that will actually add to the quality of the article. So, um, yeah, carry on. - Immigrant laborer (talk) 16:15, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Title Change?

Should I change the title to "Sex and gender in sporting events"? The original title sounds a little awkward. Eggtime (talk) 15:33, 5 February 2021 (UTC)Eggtime

Ehh.. I think it covers both bases currently. Get ready, it's... (talk) 22:42, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Stupid Comment

Wait, is there any controversy about Transmen competing amongst the Big Bois? It all seems to be about the girls... CorruptUser 17:31, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

There are less trans men in general, and less trans men in professional sport (at least according to Wikipedia:Transgender people in sports).

The objection to trans women in sports is that they have an unfair advantage, but nobody is upset about someone with an unfair disadvantage who wants to compete. What would the controversy be? You could say that as testosterone is a performance enhancing drug, any trans man on HRT should be barred from sports, but that doesn’t actually make any sense.

Some “men’s” sporting events are actually open to all, they’re just male-only because men are better at the sport. Makes it hard to complain that trans men shouldn’t be allowed to compete on the basis they’re “not real men”. Christopher (talk) 17:59, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

So you are saying that women's sports were inherently exclusive even before Trans issues were even considered? CorruptUser 18:08, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Being exclusive isn’t always a bad thing. The entire point of women’s only sports is to exclude men so that women can compete. Christopher (talk) 18:15, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

So I'd think the real question should be who is asking for trans women to be excluded. Is it female athletes themselves or pearl-clutchers who don't think trans women should be allowed in public in the first place? CorruptUser 18:36, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

There are two levels I am aware of. At the sports regulatory body level, there is a struggle to define regulations for trans competitors that balance fairness of competition with inclusiveness. This also includes others along the same lines like intersex individuals... in fact I think Caster Semenya, who is intersex, not trans, that is the most noted controversy so far in the athletic world. On the flip side, the usual pearl clutching moralizers in America and Republicans happy to play the game of stoking bigotry fires in order to disguise their generally shitty policy vision. They are the only ones calling for a total ban that I know of. At least many articles in media are highlighting that lawmakers calling for the ban haven't been able to name any examples of trans women competing. It's mainly a dog and pony show for the Fox News outrage crowd. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 19:10, 22 March 2021 (UTC)