Talk:Circumcision/Archive1
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[edit] History
I believe that this was historical and is currently more an issue of cleanliness rather than impressiveness. One bit in modern times is that circumcision reduces the risk of contracting or passing on AIDS significantly.[1][2] As I understand it (only having one set to work with), a circumcised penis is much easier to keep clean than an uncircumcised one. --Shagie 21:01, 28 November 2007 (EST)
The "impressiveness" bit is just a little snark (actually a South Park reference). Feel free to add on the cleanliness piece, and the HIV resistance piece, though I personally think the HIV bit is propaganda. I can't imagine by what method a circumcized penis would reduce risk of HIV exposure. What do you think, PalMD?
- From the NYT article... "Research suggests that the cells on the underside of the foreskin are prime targets for the virus and that tears and abrasions in the foreskin can invite the infection." This seams reasonable. --Shagie 21:15, 28 November 2007 (EST)
I've ended up in some pretty heated debates at the Dawkins forum. I'm a bit hampered by my cultural baggage, but studies do show that HIV transmission is reduced by circumcision. Also the risks of certain penile cancers are reduces. Certain other problems, such as wp:phimosis and wp:paraphimosis are eliminated. The degree of benefit of these factors is still a bit up in the air. There are very plausible explanations for the HIV thing. Condoms, of course, are also good. There is no clear evidence one way or the other about harms of circumcision.
Refs:
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0140673607603134 http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0140673604158406
There really is not clear answer as to whether circ is good or evil or neither. IMnsHO.--PalMD-If it looks like a donut, eat it 22:52, 28 November 2007 (EST)
- Cutting off the penis reduces the risk of STI transmission and penile cancer as well. --emc [TALK]
- Actually, there is no evidence at all that it does. there are a few small studies, but they are limited in scope, and not run very well, since they do not really take social issues in consideration. 75.166.142.95 (talk) 17:43, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- Not that castration has anything to do with circumcision. -- Seth Peck (talk) 17:45, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- But it's the best next thing.--
Brasov 22:05, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- But it's the best next thing.--
- Not that castration has anything to do with circumcision. -- Seth Peck (talk) 17:45, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, there is no evidence at all that it does. there are a few small studies, but they are limited in scope, and not run very well, since they do not really take social issues in consideration. 75.166.142.95 (talk) 17:43, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
[edit] Removed material (heh)
Going to add to this page, and then I imagine the Theory of Practice user (intactivist?) will change it back? Nothing that I added went against community guidelines or intentions, nor is any of it false. I believe, that unless the intent is to provide a pro-intactivist viewpoint, that a counterpoint is very necessary. Obviously, none of the information on HIV/AIDs is on the page, and it's further apparent that the last person to have edited or accessed the page did so from a 'circumcision is mutilation' rationale, and I'm not sure that really fits in with RationalWiki.
So, I'm going to go back and re-add the changes that I first contributed, as I have now added my rationale to the talk page. — Unsigned, by: MranMsRational / talk / contribs (moved this, dated it so it didn't get lost in a 2008 debate. godot)
- See, the thing is, there is virtually no evidence that circumcision is a good thing, or that it helps aids or cancer prevention. There are limited studies in particular areas of Africa, but given that most of Europe does not circumcise, and they do not have a noticably higher rate of cancer or STDs, or AIDS, you have a huge problem trying to say it's an effective cure/treatment/prevention.
GodotWhat is your fucking defense of automatic guns, again? 15:10, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- I believe, that unless the intent is to provide a pro-intactivist viewpoint, that a counterpoint is very necessary." We're not NPOV, so counterpoints are not necessary at all. What the hell is "intactivism"? The intent is to talk about how lopping a perfectly healthy bit of skin off of an unwilling infant is probably not a great idea. Theory of Practice "the standards of the site are ultimately an expression of the community makeup, and not a set of rules or policies." 15:12, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- Also, this edit absolutely reeks of personal issues, what with all the parentheticals. If you would like to add the information you're trying to add, it might help to cite some sources. Cow...Hammertime! 15:16, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- "unless the intent is to provide a pro-intactivist viewpoint, that a counterpoint is very necessary." - Nonsense. The intactivist stance is the neutral stance (preserving the child's right to decide for him/herself when old enough to do so). Subjecting a child to an unnecessary and irreversible amputative surgery is the bias. This is a truly one-sided issue. Nothing rational can be or has ever been said in defense of circumcising children. --89.0.205.202 (talk) 04:07, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
- I believe, that unless the intent is to provide a pro-intactivist viewpoint, that a counterpoint is very necessary." We're not NPOV, so counterpoints are not necessary at all. What the hell is "intactivism"? The intent is to talk about how lopping a perfectly healthy bit of skin off of an unwilling infant is probably not a great idea. Theory of Practice "the standards of the site are ultimately an expression of the community makeup, and not a set of rules or policies." 15:12, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
[edit] a total laughable joke
- This discussion was moved here from Saloon Bar. Ŵêâŝêîôîď
Methinks it is a Weasel 01:36, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
The first line of the RationalWiki entry reads 'required of all male Jews due to their religion and generally performed by Muslims' is a total laughable joke. Pathetic. Never heard of female circumcision either I suppose. But I suppose if I try to change this page I will be censored also. Any contributions? Please respond to the talk page. Thanks. Or am I whining again? Censor me? Dirk Steele (talk) 01:19, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
- You're whining again, troll. Theory of Practice "Now we stand outcast and starving 'mid the wonders we have made." 01:21, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
- The article on circumcision has a section and a link specifically to the article on Female genital mutilation for a reason, child.--Just relax, and stay funny (talk) 01:23, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
[edit] This article's desperately in need of an update
I know that circumcision is a hot button issue since it combines sex, violence, and religion all at the same time, but the current article we have on this site is a joke. I'm stunned of just how easily certain members of the skeptic community can abide by outright nonsense if it fits in their pre-concieved notions.
For one, the removal of the foreskin in males is nothing like the removal of the clitoris in females, as anyone with a basic understanding of sex organ homology can understand. The male homologous equivalent of the clitoris is the penis, and the female homologous equivalent of the foreskin is the clitoral hood. To suggest FGM and circumcision have any equivalent is downright offensive to victims of FGM, and the kind of ridiculous butthurt I'd expect from an MRA activist.
For another, all the studies that have suggested lack of sensitivity have been in smaller number than the ones that suggest no change or an increase in sensitivity, and are all based on anecdotal remarks rather than actual anatomical analysis. I'm not saying that some of the people who've been circumcised feel like they don't enjoy sex as much as they should. Their feelings are real, but their attribution to the cause of their sexual dysfunction deserves no more credence than Jenny McCarthy's isolation of her son's ASD. Considering how little tolerance there is here for the idiots who suggest against the majority of global warming studies, you'd figure the same could be said for the ones analyzing one of the most common medical practices on the planet.
Finally, I'm gonna call in a little personal experience. I used to be an intactivist, but I personally, have been circumcised as an adult. I didn't have it performed in an African mud hut, I had it performed by an accredited urologist after consultation at a sexual health clinic for the purposes of treating a yeast infection. I'd already tried creams and anti-fungals for years, and asked about other procedures, but he said they generally lead to relapse of the same problems I was having.
You wanna know what happened? I enjoy sex just as much as I ever had, and my problem went away almost instantly. I just wish I had it performed when I was an infant because the recovery's quite inconvenient when you're an adult and have to move all the time.
All I ask is that a little attention be paid to how fucking stupid this article is compared to other hot button issues. And I hope that my personal experience and the numerous actual studies and anatomical research that's already been put into this issue earns more of your credence than a series of .info webpages and reactionary comments from Gloria Steinem.*Asterisk* (talk) 03:22, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
- You're not making it clear what aspects of the article are "fucking stupid" and seem to be mostly arguing against stuff that's not even in the article at all. It doesn't suggest anything about male circumcision being equivalent to FGM as you seem to think it does, and adding in a load of stuff trying to define equivalent procedures (as you tried to do) really doesn't shed any light one way or the other on the ethics of circumcision. FGM is mentioned here only because of the alternative term "female circumcision" which, inaccurate and outdated as it is, was the prevailing term for FGM until a few years ago & still appears in some contexts. As for your comments on intactivists, they just read like one-sided mudslinging. You liken intactivists to anti-vaxxers and global warming denying while not actually making any argument about how their opposition to circumcision is similar to any of those things. ₩€₳$€£ΘĪÐ
Methinks it is a Weasel 21:49, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
- I apologize in advanced for going long with the next post, but you put so much wrong shit in this paragraph I've been left with no other choice.
- You're not making it clear what aspects of the article are "fucking stupid" and seem to be mostly arguing against stuff that's not even in the article at all.
- Well here's a few things for you:
- 1) The article treats the pro-circumcision as sources of greater value than the anti-circumcision sources, even though none of the anti-circumcision sources deal with studies that track the effects with actual analysis. Take the source from ScienceNordic.com, the study never actually states what causes their findings of lack of sexual pleasure. It was just a statistical analysis, but the study pretends like circumcision is the answer even thought they never point to what the problems are causing, just conjecturing possibilities of what it's causing.
- 2) Meanwhile, circinfo.net has a study which is more recent, from 2013 instead of 2011; conducted over a wider sample base, of 40,000 men, with 20,000 uncircumcised and 20,000 circumcised vs SciencenNordic's 5,000 just circumcised with no uncircumcised; and conducted by a more credible source seeing as how the NIH is a multibillion dollar US federal institute while ScienceNordic is citing a study conducted by a single Danish institute. The NIH study collected data from several thousand publications, analyzed them for credibility, and from the 36 that they analyzed to be the most credible, with original data. 2 studies were high quality randomized studies, or 1++. Of the 34 other case-control or cohort studies, 11 were high quality: 2++; 10 were well-conducted: 2+; and were 13 low quality: 2-. Only the low quality studies reported a decrease in sexual function, while every other study above this level reported no overall adverse effect on penile sensitivity, sexual arousal, sexual sensation, erectile function, premature ejaculation, ejaculatory latency, orgasm difficulties, sexual satisfaction, pleasure, or pain during penetration.
- 3) Yet if you go into the circumcision article, the inferior study conducted by ScienceNordic is written up as follows:
- As circumcision is a form of genital mutilation, some groups have protested against the practice and believe it should be ended.[3] These groups often cite a perceived decrease in sexual pleasure and the lack of consent on the part of the often infant child as evidence of child abuse. A recent study also suggests that men who have been circumcised have more difficulty reaching orgasm, their partners have more vaginal pain, and a worse sex life overall.[4]
- The NIH Study? Written up in comparative brevity:
- Others[5] defend the practice, as they claim the alleged detriments of the procedure are entirely based on dubious anecdotal evidence and woo.[6]
- 4) This is patently ridiculous. With few other issues would we tolerate such outright misrepresentation and lack of evidence on this site. There is no reason for circumcision to be different.
- Now onto your other points.
- It doesn't suggest anything about male circumcision being equivalent to FGM as you seem to think it does,
- Have you even read the article?
- It is virtually non-existent in most other Western nations, except among Jews and Muslims.[12] It totally isn't genital mutilation because, well, just because it isn't, okay!?
- Most studies conclude that FGM is significantly more dangerous than circumcision; this, however, should not be used as an excuse for performing the latter.
- Interestingly, circumcision is not banned in most countries where FGM is. It's a touchy point with men's rights activists, and is the closest thing they have to a valid example of inequality that favors females argued by the movement (but, unfortunately, not always for the right reasons).
- This clearly suggests male foreskin removal is the equivalent to FGM. The article you're defending repeatedly contradicts your own defense in its eight paragraphs. Did you even spend one minute going over the article looking to see if it matched up with your defense, or did you honestly just jot it down in blind faith it'd match up and I'd be wrong?
- As for your comments on intactivists, they just read like one-sided mudslinging. You liken intactivists to anti-vaxxers and global warming denying while not actually making any argument about how their opposition to circumcision is similar to any of those things.
- Since you seem to have abruptly forgotten the principles of skepticism for this one pet issue of yours, I'll bring you back to reality: there's no reason to not be one sided on this issue. Just because there are two sides to an issue doesn't mean the two sides both have valid points. If I tell you the sun is hot and you tell me the sun is cold and I'm just being one sided, there aren't suddenly two sides worth defending. Nor are there with the folks at Infowars, nor are there with the folks at Loose Change, nor are there with the anti-vaxxers, and nor are there here.
- So please, can we change this fucking stupid article to one that's actually of merit to reason? Or are you happy having articles on this site that completely fail to meet the standards of logic as long as they conform to the viewpoint you already have in mind?
- Trick question. I'm rewriting this article tomorrow. Our opinions aren't equally valid, and I don't give the slightest shit how your opinion's wrong. All that matters in the layers of wrong is that it's fundamentally wrong, and that it's replaced with right. I'm posting this here to document in detail why the article needs to change and is an affront to the site. I'd happily do the same for any other article on the site that treats unfounded, poorly worked ideas with anything other than outright hostility.
- You're more than happy to see the error of your ideas and join me in helping to correct this little blot of stupid on the site: But if you just decided to gloss over my points and rebuttal with more useless tripe that isn't even supported in the circumcision page itself, I don't give a fuck what you think. Post some actual content next time, or don't bother. *Asterisk* (talk) 06:59, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
- No, this isn't a pet issue of mine. Yes, obviously I have read the article, and no, it doesn't say anything about circumcision being "equivalent" to FGM. In fact, as you quoted above, it says FGM is "significantly more dangerous", but this has no bearing on whether circumcision itself is ethical or not. Nothing you've posted explains why circumcising babies & children who cannot consent to this procedure is justified, nor why opposing such circumcisions should be viewed as a crank position. Wěǎšěǐǒǐď
Methinks it is a Weasel 07:21, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
- No, this isn't a pet issue of mine. Yes, obviously I have read the article, and no, it doesn't say anything about circumcision being "equivalent" to FGM. In fact, as you quoted above, it says FGM is "significantly more dangerous", but this has no bearing on whether circumcision itself is ethical or not. Nothing you've posted explains why circumcising babies & children who cannot consent to this procedure is justified, nor why opposing such circumcisions should be viewed as a crank position. Wěǎšěǐǒǐď
- You're more than happy to see the error of your ideas and join me in helping to correct this little blot of stupid on the site: But if you just decided to gloss over my points and rebuttal with more useless tripe that isn't even supported in the circumcision page itself, I don't give a fuck what you think. Post some actual content next time, or don't bother. *Asterisk* (talk) 06:59, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
- It said in the last sentence of the last paragraph that MRA activists had a point with comparing circumcision to FGM, and even with the "disclaimer" of it being "more dangerous," the way the article frames it still gives credence to the issues being on the same moral plane. Even the fourth sentence of the first paragraph classifies circumcision as a form of mutilation. That's like classifying an appendectomy as a form of vivisection, technically true, but entirely misleading.
- Your baby point is completely ridiculous. Children not being able to give consent is irrelevant if what they're about to undergo will either do them no harm or actively improve their lives. Since all sufficient reliable data shows that the procedure reduces risk of numerous infections, reduces risk of deadly VDs, and that the best and easiest time to have the procedure performed with the lowest risk of complications is infancy, parents have every right to have the surgery performed. You might as well argue the kid not being able to consent to vaccines. Sure, both hurt, and sure, both the infant might not consent to with personal choice; but when the alternative is infection and disease compared to momentary discomfort, there's no time to wait.
- Now there are some people who just can't have the procedure done at all; much like how people with celiac disease can't have gluten and how people with certain physical sensitivities can't have vaccines. I'm not saying those people should have the procedure done. But if you're of the proper health to have the procedure, it's for your benefit to get it done at the best possible time with the lowest possible complications, which like vaccines, is infancy.
- So are you gonna actually source some of your opinions to even a fabrication at any point in this conversation, or are you gonna continue this internet creationist-esque style critique until I surrender at your own thickheaded muster? Maybe with a little effort thrown in, your posts could upgrade from "Daily Currant" all the way to the level of "Loose Change." — Unsigned, by: *Asterisk* / talk / contribs 10:14, 2 July 2014
- Your rewrite doesn't seem popular. Wėąṣėḷőįď
Methinks it is a Weasel 23:03, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
- Your rewrite doesn't seem popular. Wėąṣėḷőįď
- I don't care if it's popular, I care if it's right. Gluten free diets are also popular, and they're stupid as shit for everyone who doesn't have celiac.
- Post on why my changes aren't right. You could start by actually reading my article and checking my sources, because the bullshit we have here now is indefensible *Asterisk* (talk) 08:43, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Proposal
Whilst I think that Asterix is far too biased to one side of a complex argument I do feel that we're not sufficiently neutral on what is a difficult and complex debate. As such I propose replacing the first section with something like User_talk:Cloud_Yeller/sandbox. Any comments? Cloud Yeller (talk) 11:00, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, that stuff in your user-space is pre' kewl; I think it would be a good solution to copy/paste it here, and let the community add info, change spelling and grammar, fix up sources, whatever is deemed necessary. Good idea. GØØBY PLS Adorn the new king…
11:47, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
- Seconded, I agree with some of the points by Asterix but don't like the way that their argument is presented at all. As you said, it is far more complex than that. I like some of what you've written though, I doubt it will be as contested if posted in that manner --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 12:53, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
There is nothing neutral about the text that you added. It goes for an easy answer ("it’s pretty much up to you" [the parent], unless you live in sub-Saharan Africa apparently) while completely evading the issue of informed consent, even though that's what the BMA quote is largely about. You also removed quite a lot of info, such as the prevalence and distribution of circumcision worldwide. ωεαşεζόίď
Methinks it is a Weasel 18:01, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
- Cloud Yeller's been incredibly sensible in his edits. He's actually seeking to improve the article rather than keeping it in the original, terrible shape it's in.
- Now as for your point about "informed consent." I actually had an extended section on the issues of informed consent in my version of the article which was heavily sourced. Of course, since you're not actually reading anything I write, you wouldn't know this. I'll put it back in, and maybe you can try to read it this time. *Asterisk* (talk) 18:20, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
- I also removed some of the unsourced claims, changed the section on the Mens rights advocates to show what idiots they are, and removed the point about circumcision countering the Bible. Tens of millions of Christians are members of branches that require circumcision for religious reasons. Most other Christians, including St. Paul, were neutral on the subject, mainly just believing it wasn't necessary to show if you were devout or not. Saying it contradicts Christianity is meaningless outrage bait. *Asterisk* (talk) 18:34, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
- I think that we should maybe use more references that aren't 'circinfo', that is to say, a larger variety, as it appears quite a lot in that section. The website seems very well researched and sourced but also very pro-circumcision in its writing style and lacking in criticism. A greater wealth of references would aid that --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 19:01, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
- Also you removed quite a lot of the references with your edit Cloud Yeller, some of which seemed valid. I think it would probably be good to meet somewhere in the middle on this particular issue --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 19:04, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
- I think that we should maybe use more references that aren't 'circinfo', that is to say, a larger variety, as it appears quite a lot in that section. The website seems very well researched and sourced but also very pro-circumcision in its writing style and lacking in criticism. A greater wealth of references would aid that --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 19:01, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
- Here's the problem, there aren't comparably well researched anti-circumcision arguments. It's one thing to have two sides of a debate from a philosophical perspective, but when only one side is the one with research on it, there's no reason to equally support both. *Asterisk* (talk) 19:21, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
- Okay, I honestly don't know very much about circumcision, it isn't very popular here in England. I just felt that the article relied too much on one particular website and that lots of sources were removed from various websites. I get what you mean, I would discuss the sources themselves if I were you, what it is that is unreliable against them etc. --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 19:32, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
- Here's the problem, there aren't comparably well researched anti-circumcision arguments. It's one thing to have two sides of a debate from a philosophical perspective, but when only one side is the one with research on it, there's no reason to equally support both. *Asterisk* (talk) 19:21, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
- One of the things that makes circinfo.net such a reliable source of information is that everything they claim has an index of real sources, handily alphabetized for your convenience. It also means that if you go back and look at my revision of the article, every link to circinfo.net I provide can be erased and replaced with a series of links to a greater variety of sources.
- Take the second source I linked to from my version. When removed and replaced with the sources contained within said link, you get the following, presented in alphabetical order:
- A British study comparing tonsillectomies and circumcisions.
- A University of Edinburgh study on pain in the newborn.
- A study assessing health benefits and risks.
- A University of California study on early adolescent knowledge and attitudes about circumcision.
- A Lancet study.
- An article from the British Journal of Surgery posted on an anti-circumcision website that, funnily enough, says reports of impediments are anecdotal and links complications towards causing only two deaths.
- Given just how thorough the sources provided in the more summarized source of just circinfo.net are, I figured it'd be more expedient to just link from there. However, if you want, I can go back to my last edit of this article, check every one of the circinfo source I listed, and replace the link I put to them with the links to the sources listed in them. I'd be more than happy to do it. *Asterisk* (talk) 04:10, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm going to drop out of this debate, I only really had issues with the adding and removal of so many sources but I don't know enough about the topic at hand to properly contribute. I think this particular issue is going to be difficult to argue for a rewrite for but as long as you rely strongly on sources then who knows --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 12:42, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
[edit] The proposal
May or not may be a good one -- I really have no skin in the game -- but it appears that at least a few people think the trigger was pulled prematurely, so I've restored it to an older version for now. Father Vivian O'Blivion talk
19:28, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
- Reverted to the old version, then cleaned up the bias. The version Father Vivian reverted to was crap and woo; unscientific confirmation bias. *Asterisks* summary at the beginning was much more informative and accurate in regards to the medical information within. However, the section on "informed consent" directly contradicted the earlier section--it stated with certainty that circumcision was benefiticial, where previously the article stated that "the jury's out." I cleaned up the section significantly to better represent current medical consensus as I understand it (I am not a doctor) Reyemile (talk) 02:54, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
- Bullshit. The version you posted is claiming things like questioning the need for routine infant circumcision "has no basis in science or logic". This isn't cleaning up bias. You also removed a lot of information. If the article contains "crap and woo", please identify it. Wėąṣėḷőįď
Methinks it is a Weasel 07:31, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
- Scroll up; the crap and woo was quite thoroughly identified and analyzed by Asterisk in earlier talk comments, which is why I reverted to his edits. I'm not going to repeat it since it's all right there, but the TL;DR version is that NO major medical organization has concluded circumcision is highly dangerous or highly unethical, and the version you just reverted to uses extremely low-quality citations to argue this board should reject the consensus of the entire medical establishment. Finally, you fundamentally mischaracterize Asterisks and my version of the article. We are not saying there is "no basis in science and logic" to question the medical benefits of circumcision. We are claiming there is "no basis in science and logic" to claim that allowing circumcision and banning FGM is proof of bigotry against men. To avoid edit warring I will wait 24 hours before reverting; unless I'm presented with a good reason not to in that time, I will revert your edits. I will make the section about Men's Rights more explicit when I do so.Reyemile (talk) 19:10, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
- The article doesn't say any of the things you claim it does: that circumcision is highly dangerous or highly unethical, nor that it's proof of bigotry against men. Asterisk's text is full of non-sequiturs, red herrings & false analogies, half of them cribbed almost verbatim from circinfo.net. ₩€₳$€£ΘĪÐ
Methinks it is a Weasel 19:23, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
- It doesn't explicitly state that it's dangerous--I stand corrected. However, the article OPENS by saying "why do many people insist on having the right to mutilate a defenseless boy's penis." The plain reading of the text confirms the authors believe the practice is unethical, plain and simple. As for circinfo.net, you are correct that it is an advocacy site--however, as Asterisk explained, nearly all of the citations from that website are direct citations from other, highly reliable sites. Again, I'm not going to quote it, but scroll up and you'll see the list of scholarly research that is referred to. Finally, if you're going to ask me to explicitly point out the "crap and woo," I'm going to do the same for you--what "non-sequiturs, red herrings & false analogies" do you see?
- Examples include appeal to authority (urologists do it so it must be right), appeal to function (no known purpose for the foreskin exists so it's fine to remove without consent), and appeal to stupid analogy (children don't consent to school so it's OK to perform a permanent body modification on them too). None of these has anything to do with scholarly research. ₩€₳$€£ΘĪÐ
Methinks it is a Weasel 21:50, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
- None of those are in the article anymore. On the talk page, I explicitly identified the same section as problematic; in the article, I rewrote that section to remove the parts you're offended by. I'm reverting to my version of the article. Please read it before making further reversions or contributions.Reyemile (talk) 02:03, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- Examples include appeal to authority (urologists do it so it must be right), appeal to function (no known purpose for the foreskin exists so it's fine to remove without consent), and appeal to stupid analogy (children don't consent to school so it's OK to perform a permanent body modification on them too). None of these has anything to do with scholarly research. ₩€₳$€£ΘĪÐ
- It doesn't explicitly state that it's dangerous--I stand corrected. However, the article OPENS by saying "why do many people insist on having the right to mutilate a defenseless boy's penis." The plain reading of the text confirms the authors believe the practice is unethical, plain and simple. As for circinfo.net, you are correct that it is an advocacy site--however, as Asterisk explained, nearly all of the citations from that website are direct citations from other, highly reliable sites. Again, I'm not going to quote it, but scroll up and you'll see the list of scholarly research that is referred to. Finally, if you're going to ask me to explicitly point out the "crap and woo," I'm going to do the same for you--what "non-sequiturs, red herrings & false analogies" do you see?
- The article doesn't say any of the things you claim it does: that circumcision is highly dangerous or highly unethical, nor that it's proof of bigotry against men. Asterisk's text is full of non-sequiturs, red herrings & false analogies, half of them cribbed almost verbatim from circinfo.net. ₩€₳$€£ΘĪÐ
- Scroll up; the crap and woo was quite thoroughly identified and analyzed by Asterisk in earlier talk comments, which is why I reverted to his edits. I'm not going to repeat it since it's all right there, but the TL;DR version is that NO major medical organization has concluded circumcision is highly dangerous or highly unethical, and the version you just reverted to uses extremely low-quality citations to argue this board should reject the consensus of the entire medical establishment. Finally, you fundamentally mischaracterize Asterisks and my version of the article. We are not saying there is "no basis in science and logic" to question the medical benefits of circumcision. We are claiming there is "no basis in science and logic" to claim that allowing circumcision and banning FGM is proof of bigotry against men. To avoid edit warring I will wait 24 hours before reverting; unless I'm presented with a good reason not to in that time, I will revert your edits. I will make the section about Men's Rights more explicit when I do so.Reyemile (talk) 19:10, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
- Bullshit. The version you posted is claiming things like questioning the need for routine infant circumcision "has no basis in science or logic". This isn't cleaning up bias. You also removed a lot of information. If the article contains "crap and woo", please identify it. Wėąṣėḷőįď
Reverted again. Previous request stands. It's unreasonable to revert and article for problems that the editor had already identified and fixed.Reyemile (talk) 13:44, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- In the interest of not edit warring, I'm waiting 24 hours before I will revert again. However, I repeat myself--Weaseloid is editing in bad faith. The errors he used to justify his reversion were already identified by me on the talk page and fixed by me in the article; he hasn't given a justification for the current article staying as it is. Asterisk's version is flawed--it's sparser than the current version, less funny, and has a smaller variety of cites. However, it's correct, where as the current article relies on a few flawed small-scale studies to argue that the entirety of the medical establishment is incorrect factually and ethically about the consequences of circumcision. If you think the version I'm switching to is weak, then please feel free to fix it; please do not restore the biased misrepresentation that is currently posted. If you believe the current version which claims circumcision "totally isn't genital mutilation because, well, just because it isn't, okay!?" is accurate, then please address the points Asterisk raised above--specifically, the fact that the sexual side-effects and health risks are primarily identified in smaller and lower-quality studies. Reyemile (talk) 17:09, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- Multiple people keep reverting; no one is using the talk page. I am happy to work out our differences like reasonable people, but if reverting edits is the only tool made available to me, it's the tool I will use. Reyemile (talk) 02:57, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- As I said on your talkpage, acting by fiat is a bad idea. But I will not continue beating that horse. I think a bit of what you added does, in fact, have merit and should be changed in the article. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 03:19, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- I don't want to add by fiat--I want to understand why people disagree with in my edits (which aren't really mine, see the thorough documentation by Asterisk above). Unfortunately, no one seems willing to defend the position. Reyemile (talk) 05:35, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- Oh, I understand. Part of the reason I joined in is because I found the level at which you were being engaged embarrassing. The reason I suggested chunking up your additions is because if you go point-by-point in your additions, it's easier for people like me (people on the outside of the edit war) to figure out what's going on, and because it's also easier to debate based on individual points rather than based on large quantities and generalizations. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 06:19, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- I don't want to add by fiat--I want to understand why people disagree with in my edits (which aren't really mine, see the thorough documentation by Asterisk above). Unfortunately, no one seems willing to defend the position. Reyemile (talk) 05:35, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- As I said on your talkpage, acting by fiat is a bad idea. But I will not continue beating that horse. I think a bit of what you added does, in fact, have merit and should be changed in the article. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 03:19, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- Multiple people keep reverting; no one is using the talk page. I am happy to work out our differences like reasonable people, but if reverting edits is the only tool made available to me, it's the tool I will use. Reyemile (talk) 02:57, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
[edit] Zero-sum approach, pitting rights of one sex against the other
I'm noticing a few statements that removing the clitoral hood is not FGM. Tens of millions of girls undergo this and less severe forms of cutting in Indonesia. Because the glans clitoris is not removed, the Indonesian government claims this practice is beneficial. The burden of proof is on the idea that any degree of cutting on either sex is NOT harmful. The procedure is irreversible, has varied outcomes by health status, race, socioeconomics, method and location, and every culture that cuts girls cuts boys under the same conditions. The favorable outcomes of some western white men are being used as a reason to ignore what is happening to children from all backgrounds. The term 'mutilation' applies to inanimate objects, but not to something 70% of the male population uses to masturbate? As a bodily integrity advocate I refuse to exclude girls and the intersexed from my analysis, including those who have lost less tissue than boys do. I also refuse to exclude women who are being sterilized in prisons, or men who are castrated in hate crimes and war crimes. Genital cutting is the very picture of eugenics and social Darwinism - the belief that natural selection needs our help. - GB — Unsigned, by: 66.214.26.183 / talk / contribs 08:34, 1 September 2014
- Come again? Reyemile (talk) 00:47, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- So you edit war, stamp your foot & demand people engage you on the talk page, and when they do, this is your level of response. How incisive. ωεαşεζόίď
Methinks it is a Weasel 07:26, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- He may be referring to both of you and GB's insistence on using ethical arguments over scientific arguments and simply rejecting any scientific arguments which don't conform to your ethical views relating to bodily integrity. This as well as your casual dismissal of the views of fairly well respected professional organizations such as the AAP. Also how Genital cutting of any kind is "Eugenics" or "Social Darwinism" is beyond me. There are arguments one can make against the practice but those two certainly aren't among them. Alsto003 (talk) 13:03, 2 September 2014 (UTC) Alex
- Alex has a good point, but he guessed wrong--my response, "come again," was a response to that fact that I honestly have no idea what GB's thesis is, or how it relates to Asterisk's edits of the article Reyemile (talk) 15:34, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- To be fair, the IP's argument sort of starts off well but he seems to get lost about half way through and then wanders off into weirdness. So the "come again?" comment, though perhaps unfortunately worded, does seem appropriate.--Bob"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that." 19:14, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- Alex has a good point, but he guessed wrong--my response, "come again," was a response to that fact that I honestly have no idea what GB's thesis is, or how it relates to Asterisk's edits of the article Reyemile (talk) 15:34, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- He may be referring to both of you and GB's insistence on using ethical arguments over scientific arguments and simply rejecting any scientific arguments which don't conform to your ethical views relating to bodily integrity. This as well as your casual dismissal of the views of fairly well respected professional organizations such as the AAP. Also how Genital cutting of any kind is "Eugenics" or "Social Darwinism" is beyond me. There are arguments one can make against the practice but those two certainly aren't among them. Alsto003 (talk) 13:03, 2 September 2014 (UTC) Alex
- So you edit war, stamp your foot & demand people engage you on the talk page, and when they do, this is your level of response. How incisive. ωεαşεζόίď
- One last thing "western white men"? As if circumcision was unique to "western white men" (sarcasm). Not only has most of the research on HIV and circumcision been done in Africa, but I imagine that the Muslims of this world would be amused by your ridiculous and outright stupid assumption that advocacy for this practice is restricted to and I quote "western white men." Alsto003 (talk) 14:17, 4 September 2014 (UTC) Alex
- I don't think you've read B0N's comment very carefully or understood it very well if you think he/she is suggestion that circumcision is unique to western white men. Quite the opposite. Щєазєюіδ
Methinks it is a Weasel 18:42, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
- I am aware that GB was not saying that circumcision is unique to white men. However I feel that GB's comment implies that advocacy for circumcision is unique to western white men; otherwise there would be no reason for GB to mention race or class in the first place. I had also considered that GB might be referring to the fact that in the west this procedure is done in a medical setting whereas in developing countries it is not. Which is not only a bit simplistic (as general rule a Brit Milah is done in a home by some religious dude who may or may not be an actual doctor), but also irrelevant as that argument has more to do with inequality and medical safety than the merits or detriments (ethical or scientific) of this procedure. By virtue of claiming that "western white men" are the only persons who (according to him) experience "favorable outcomes" from this procedure I feel that GB is implying that advocacy for circumcision is somehow linked to a western worldview (which is BS). Essentially apart from the issue of medical safety (or more specifically in this case, the difference between the medical facilities in the developed world versus the medical facilities in the undeveloped world) which I feel is irrelevant in this particular context, I cannot think of a good reason how race and class has anything to do with this debate and as such I am making assumptions of what motives GB had for saying that race and class is related to this debate. Alsto003 (talk) 12:54, 5 September 2014 (UTC) Alex
- I don't think you've read B0N's comment very carefully or understood it very well if you think he/she is suggestion that circumcision is unique to western white men. Quite the opposite. Щєазєюіδ
- Frankly, for the article to even *have* a section on human rights would be a vast improvement. It would also be vast improvement for the article to detail what is removed - the foreskin which can comprise up to half of the penile surface area and provides all lubrication, and usually the frenulum which can cause orgasm all by itself. The female equivalent of this would be the removal of the clitoral hood and labia (still less tissue than the adult foreskin contains) and the capacity to lubricate. Medical organizations in Europe are starting to turn against circumcising children, and there have been multiple legal challenges to it in Europe in the past five years. As for the reference to white men, the vast majority of advocacy in favor of circumcision comes from Western trade organizations such as the AAP (whose entire circumcision taskforce is composed of doctors who perform circumcisions). The Western view of circumcision is also based on hospital circumcisions, which ignores the fact that many cultures circumcise boys in unsanitary conditions with untrained practitioners. Obviously other cultures practice circumcision, but they don't use medicine as a pretense. There is also no critical examination of the arguments in favor of circumcision, such as the 60% HIV-reduction claim which was fabricated by Brian Morris based on three badly flawed studies. The circumcised men in those studies had a recovery time and received condoms and sex ed. The control group did not. The studies also did not account for transmissions through intravenous drug use or other means. Even with those factors, the circumcised men had a 2% infection rate while the control group had an infection rate of 0.8%. That was restated by Morris (who also believes that FGM increases pleasure and that the French Revolution was caused by Louis XVI's foreskin) as being a 60% reduction. Technically it was, but it was a 60% reduction from 2% with multiple factors not controlled for. I didn't focus on Jewish circumcision because it's such a small number of people. A fully-sourced timeline of the fraudulent medical arguments in favor of circumcision: icgi.org/medicalization -GB