Talk:Alt-right

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@Cosmikdebris ok I noticed your removal of environmentalism category and reaction with WTF, here are cites for alt-right ecofascism info, though category for that doesn't exist so i put in category environmentalism hopefully this clears things up Low computer battery (talk) 02:27, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Category:Anti-Korean[edit]

Users who remove this category should read the article first. Moreover, the Japanese far right has exchanges with the American far right, and in fact, the alt-rights support Japan's anti-Korean racism because they praise it as an ideal country. And many manga writers supported alt-right. In contrast, BTS supported BLM. Umaru16 (talk) 02:58, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Above all, the alt-right movement is a far-right movement that takes place throughout the First World, not just in American politics. In Japan, politicians and celebrities who deny war crimes in the past and show anti-Korean racism are referred to as "alt-right." But why should the 'Category:anti-Korean' be removed? Umaru16 (talk)

Especially, because South Korea's anti-Japanese sentiment is expressed by liberal anti-imperialists, hate crimes that inflict physical violence are not common, even if there are many hate speech against the Japanese. But anti-Korean in Japan has no historical justification at all, and is closely linked to past far-right movements to justify imperialism and fascism. As stated in the article Japan, hate crimes often occur in Japan accompanied by physical violence against Koreans. There are a lot of anti-Korean far-right groups in Japan. And the Japanese also call them "alt-right". In addition, the alt-right of the United States and the alt-right of Japan are friendly to each other. Umaru16 (talk) 03:15, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Alt right is the “patriotically” correct term for white nationalism. That’s it.There’s nothing else to it.--Jakester499 (talk) (contributions) 02:03, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

No. There is also an Alt-right in East Asia. Alt-right has numerous other factors such as misogyny and right-wing populism. Alt-right in Japan is mainly related to anti-Korean racism, and Alt-right in South Korea is mainly related to anti-feminist incel culture. See Category:Alt-right in Asia Umaru16 (talk) 02:09, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Personally, I still think there is a difference between "alt-right" and similar non-US movements. But if all online nationalist movements with a meme / Internet culture that shares some similarity to the chan culture of the alt-right shall be included, we would ideally need to include as many as possible. This also would include India (eg, as described with the RW page for the India "alt-right" glossary, the "trads", a group which believes that Narendra Modi is not nationalist enough), Islam (maybe... when Andrew Tate popped up, a few articles mentioned an "akh-right" subculture that grew around Tate's purported Muslim masocism. RW doesn't have anything on it, but I am not seeing enough articles to know if it's actually truly a prominent movement or if it's just a couple of dumbass Tatebro influencers on Twitter), and the European "flavors" of the "alt-right" that don't quite fit in with 4chan, Richard Spencer, and the like.

I guess one problem I have combining these subcultures is that they seem pretty distinct. EG: If one pops on a netto-uyoku board with a Pepe meme, would anyone notice? The Indian glossary as well as the RW non-Anglophone glossary only suggests tangential connection, and even among different Western countries the overall culture and "memes" seems quite different even if the broad motivation (masochistic nationalism) is the same.

However... generally, sources are all over the map though on whether "alt-right" is a US specific term ([1][2][3]) or an umbrella term ([4][5][6]). So I guess there is no real consensus on this yet.

(Note: I do like the idea of having terminology references to different online cultures of this style (regardless of the term), so props to those that created these articles). BobJohnson (talk) 18:30, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I disagree Edward the eight (talk) 10:15, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Good pointJakester499 (talk) (contributions) 02:11, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

South Korean wiki deals very closely with the pro-Japanese version of alt-right and the attack on Korea, so should I bring a link? Umaru16 (talk) 21:49, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Do you know why Western media doesn't mention the friendly connection between alt-right and the Japanese right? This is because it is a matter of political, economic, and military interests in the West. Negotiations on Japanese Military Sexual Slavery in 2015 were led by conservatives, with most South Koreans angry at the unwanted agreement with the victims and well aware that it was made under U.S. political pressure. Umaru16 (talk) 21:55, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

It benefits the U.S. and European countries by forcing Japan to rearm, ignore the de-colonialist agenda of the South Korean left, and force the relationship between the two countries to keep China in check. This is because China and Russia are the biggest threats to the United States and European countries. But for South Koreans, Japanese conservatives are a bigger threat. Japanese liberals oppose Japan's strengthening of its military power and having a formal army. But American liberals and American conservatives, including Joe Biden, likewise want Japan to move away from US military protection and have plenty of its own. (This is because for the United States, keeping China and Russia in check is more important than all other agendas.) That's why even if American alt-rights attack South Korean and Japanese liberals and leftists, American and European media do not report well. (United States demands that Japan have a formal army and a stronger military power, which is also a long-cherished dream of the Japanese right-wing to far-right.) Umaru16 (talk) 22:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Do you know why Western media doesn't mention the friendly connection between alt-right and the Japanese right? This is because it is a matter of political, economic, and military interests in the West. Negotiations on Japanese Military Sexual Slavery in 2015 were led by conservatives, with most South Koreans angry at the unwanted agreement with the victims and well aware that it was made under U.S. political pressure. Umaru16 (talk) 21:55, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

There's already an article on netto-uyoku (both RW and even Wikipedia seem lacking on named Korean far-right movements though, though I didn't search too much). The issue I see is here is that these are "related" but also "not related", with (in Japan's case) chan culture mainly being the two things tying them together, as well as the general grievance being the same (misogyny, racism, nationalism / militarism, "good old days", etc.). The details are different, though, because Korea / Japan is not America and vice versa. As one example, Japan nationalism is going to focus on Japan far-right things like pro-Imperial Japan / emperor, anti-US sentiment (in some versions), WWII whitewashing, and certain racism that is not present in the American alt-right (eg anti-Korean sentiment). Terms already exist for the general lump of politics this falls under ("nationalism", "fascism", "imperialism", etc.) So I kind of prefer what the other Wiki has done, which focuses "alt-right" as a specific movement relating to Richard Spencer, Breitbart / Steve Bannon, and 4chan, and provide links and articles to any related movements. That's just my opinion, though. If there are more specific ties that relate actual US alt-right personalities to Japan / Korean ones (other than the 2ch / 4chan connection which I know), I'd love to hear it.

Incidentally, American media in general covers international horribly for *everything*. However, occasionally a few places have touched on the links between American online alt-right and related, and elsewhere (see this CNN article on "Japan's QAnon") BobJohnson (talk) 22:20, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Japan's alt-rights do not have anti-Western or anti-American sentiment in a diplomatic sense. They are only hostile to all immigrants. But they are diplomatically hostile to South Korea. The famous Japanese anime writer also supported QAnon. # And I don't think Western media can be objective in all matters. We need to see their articles because not only Western media but also the South Korean all media and Japanese liberal media are 'free speech from authoritarian' media. South Korea and Japan, like countries like the United States, Germany, and France, have complete liberal democracy. Umaru16 (talk) 22:50, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

# Namuwiki, a Korean-language wiki, explains the relationship between Western alt-rights and Japan well. However, since it is Korean, you will need a translator. Umaru16 (talk) 23:06, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

One thing is for sure, from a pure national interest point of view, the Japanese right-wing supporting Japan's military arm serves the American national interest rather than the Japanese left-wing who opposes it. The United States wants Japan to become militarily strong and effectively check China and Russia. This is also why American left-liberal politicians have long favored right-wing politics in Latin American diplomacy. Mainstream American left-liberal politicians in the United States (except progressives) behave like social democrats when it comes to internal affairs, but not at all when it comes to diplomacy. American left-liberals become conservatives in diplomacy. Umaru16 (talk) 23:52, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

I disagree that there should be a Anti-korean category in Alt-right however I won't also remove it Edward the eight (talk) 05:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

My bad, I took it off in the first place because I thought that the category was too specific, and was already covered in the category of racism. But the article doesn't say that alt-right is global, it only focuses on America. So saying that the category of anti-korean shouldn't be removed because the alt-right is widespread worldwide seems misleading because this article doesn't bring up any countries other than America.Rational Dude (talk) 02:51, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't think the label "anti-Korean" is inappropriate even for alt-rights in the United States. The alt-rights in the United States are positive for Japanese conservatives, who are friendly to Japanese right-wing historical views, policies, and the anti-Korean sentiment that emerges there. And the article also mentions Japanese alt-rights a little bit. Umaru16 (talk) 21:36, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't exactly agree, since the category seems kinda redundant and specific because it's already covered in the category of racism, and the alt-right also exists in Korea, but I understand your decision. Rational Dude (talk) 21:03, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

South Korea's alt-rights have less anti-Japanese sentiment than the average South Korean. Rather, anti-Japanese sentiment is more pronounced on the liberals. (South Korean politics is very complicated, diplomatically pro-North Korea is considered far-left and pro-Japanese is considered far-right. The reason is that South Korea was colonized by Japan in the past, and conservatives followed them, but resistance movements were largely led by liberals and socialists. And 5 years after South Korea was liberated from the Japanese Empire, there is the Korean War) South Korea's alt-rights focus more on anti-feminism, rather they oppose South Korean liberals' diplomatic friction with Japan for anti-communist reasons. And what's really interesting is that the more socially far-right politicians in South Korea, the more friendly they are to Japan. South Korean liberals call alt-rights "Japanese" or even "Japs". The reason why South Korean liberals call them Japs is because some alt-rights in the South advocate Japanese colonial rule. The alt-rights of South Korea are friendly to Japan and the United States and are strongly opposed to China. South Korean liberals are also basically critical of China and support pro-American diplomatic lines, but because they are engaged in historical/cultural wars between the Japanese right-wing and the former colonial victim compensation issue. (Of course, I oppose hate speech about the Japanese apart from historical and cultural conflicts, but hate speech about the Japanese sadly appears more in liberals.)

You maybe rightJakester499 (talk) (contributions) 02:29, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Therefore, even if there are alt-rights in South Korea, the category "anti-Korea" is not inappropriate. We do not remove the "Islamophobia" category in the alt-right article, just because there are Muslim alt-rights. (South Korean conservatives, including alt-rights, are strong anti-communists and oppose excessive conflict with Japan because it leads to diplomatic friction with the United States.) Umaru16 (talk) 07:04, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Alright then, but I was pretty confused at first. There are a lot of races and ethnicities the alt-right hates (Mexicans, black people, Turkish people, etc.), so I assumed it was redundant to list it (and I still kind of think it is to a degree). But I have read articles showing South Korea's alt-right movement rising among the mainstream. Rational Dude (talk) 03:53, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

According to articles related to the alt-right movements in South Korea, there is nothing related to anti-Japanese sentiment, but rather, they view Japan as friendly as having conservative culture and politics. South Korea's far right has a colonial consciousness in Japan, but it is hostile to its internal minorities. So I think alt-right in South Korea is more like Muslim alt-right or female alt-right. One of the images that comes to mind when you think of the alt-right in South Korea is pro-Japan. (Anti-Japan sentiment in South Korea is rather more pronounced among liberals. This has to do with post-colonialism.) Umaru16 (talk) 23:17, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Not really, there were (and still are) some anti-Japanese parties in Korea. Rational Dude (talk) 22:38, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

No, anti-Japanese racism in South Korea has little to do with alt-right. Liberals and feminists are anti-Japanese in South Korea. Racist comments about Japan are frankly more often seen by feminists than by South Korean fascists. Dawn of Liberty, a South Korean alt-right political party, is a pro-Japanese political party. The current president of South Korea, Yoon Suk-yeol, is also known as K-Trumpism, and he is also pro-Japan. Just as American far-rights are supported by Russia, South Korean far-rights are supported by Japan. Anti-Japanese racism in South Korea is more similar to black ultra-nationalism than alt-right. Umaru16 (talk) 00:10, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

America's far right is linked to Russia. Likewise, the far right in South Korea is linked to Japan. (I just explained this on your Talk page, so please check it out.) Umaru16 (talk) 00:52, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Three sources[edit]

They look good to use, but I've revamped this page enough for the moment. Maybe someone else can use these, or I can use them myself later. Chillpilled (talk) 16:49, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Comment[edit]

I sadly acknowledge the link between some otakus and right wingers in both the West (Europe, America, and in this case, Argentina), and Japan. I contest, however, the way the lede paints weebs and otakus outside Japan as having such a huge overlap with the alt-right.

I also noticed many K-pop fans and Swifties being progressives, so I absolutely won't deny that. But at the same time, millions of young new weebs/otakus are progressives Gen Zs, many are LGBT, and are vocally progressive. I really think the lede, and maybe other parts of the article, should not paint western otakus as "would be" alt-righters, as I am a leftist life-long otaku myself, and was painfully struck by the voice of some parts of this article. We are not a monolith.

Of course, I'm not denying any war crimes or atrocities, or denialism by the political right in Japan. But it should also be noted Japan has some progressive elements in their government too, and multiple supreme court cases challenging the constitutional interpretation on same sex marriage for instance, and the modern Korean government is also very tight wing, but I'm digressing (just don't make modern Japan look like Russia while painting SK as some kind of progressive paradise) ^{— Unsigned, by: 2603:7080:ef41:8b00:2865:cb7f:3573:afaf / talk / contribs}

Anime is a broad art and individual titles multiple political ideologies (if it has one at all), depending on who creates it. IMHO that statement (which came from an editor with "certain viewpoints") needs a source, else I'm thinking it should be removed. Or at least a re-wording. It's not that some of the far-right isn't into anime, they are... and one can probably infer this from some of the sources of the alt-right like the Gamergate crowd. But everyone is into anime these days. And I'm sure that plenty of the alt-right do not know much about anime at all.

I will also say that from what I know, although one can certainly find Japan-style-conservative anime, themes that I think the alt-right would not approve of (like pacifism and anti-imperialism) run through quite a lot of anime (and then there's the anime that's just entertainment and nothing more...)

I mean, imagine if I made a statement like "all country music fans are MAGA Trump stans" in this article, in an article that already noted Taylor Swift's leftist fans (Swift once did make country music.) And that's before we get to long-time "politically left" country artists like Willie Nelson... BobJohnson (talk) 18:26, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Concerns over weeb/alt-right overlap[edit]

I sadly acknowledge the connection between some weebs/otakus and the alt-right. But I have issues with the tone of the lede and how it seems to paint the situation as:

Weebs/otakus= primarily alt-right, alt-right adjacent K-pon l, BTS fans= progressive, progressive adjacent

I agree that a good number of Swifties and Kpop fans I've noticed are progressive in their views, but to paint so many otakus as right wing is a painful thing for me personally as a leftist weeb/otaku. This is my and my community's identity, and none of us are bigots or rightists in beliefs.

I do think the connection should be mentioned since it is (sadly) a noticeable trend, but it's unfair to generalize like the voice of the lede and article currently do--millions of young, gen-z weebs/otakus are progressive and left leaning, now especially that anime and manga are so widespread in the world. So, so many trans youth are deep in the anime community. I know that they'd balk against this characterization.

And I'm not denying the Japanese right wing's deplorable actions by the way; they hated manga and anime for decades before they started to lean in to get domestic support once it became so economically powerful. I'm certainly not downplaying past actions by the Imperial government against Koreans, and that the right wing fosters racism. But it's also misleading to paint Korea as a unified, progressive country as it is also very conservative in many ways.

I posted anonymously before in the wrong area (archives) and I hope this time it's the right place. ^{— Unsigned, by: Ideonology / talk / contribs}

Not all Western Japanese anime and manga fandom are related to alt-right, but it is true that not a few of them are. Find out what purpose 4chan was created for. Of course, South Korea is more conservative than Japan in LGBT issues. However, Western K-Pop fandom and Western anime fandom have little to do with South Korea/Japan's actual society. In the U.S. and Argentina, for example, BTS is liked by leftists and disliked by ultraconservatives, but in South Korea, far-right conservatives also considered BTS a symbol of S.Korean patriotism.Umaru16 (talk) 22:57, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

The connection to anime fandom and alt-right is undeniable. They are called white samurai. Umaru16 (talk) 22:59, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

The original 4chan transplants from SomethingAwful, including Christopher Poole himself, are actually relatively centrist to even left-leaning compared to the extremism of both the alt-right and 4chan today. Though, I think they mostly did foster an aversion to popular feminism that Gamergate eventually thrived off of. But some would be shocked by the "social justice" tendencies of some of the earliest available /b/ threads archived that at least I know of (2006/2007)... though there's also threads in the clear opposite direction, so, chaos would be the way to put it. Chillpilled (talk) 23:02, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't think South Korea is a progressive country. South Korea is quite social conservative, but the Western K-Pop fandom is very progressive and has little to do with South Korea's social conservatism. Umaru16 (talk) 23:03, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Western anime conventions with minorities and progressives[edit]

I would like to know the motive for the author of this article to not update the opening to be more reflective of reality regarding otaku and alt-right. In Seattle and other US cities, and France, there's a multicultural and queer veneer over anime conventions constantly (my own experience, but I've been to them for years now) ^{— Unsigned, by: 2603:7080:ef41:8b00:fec7:412c:d921:38ea / talk / contribs}