Talk:Book of Revelation

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You know...

Biblical prophecy is actually really consistent and in a number of places states what those metaphors mean. For example:

• Whore of Babylon: Great city which reigns over the kings of the Earth (Revelation 17:18: And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.)
• Great Dragon: Satan, the devil, which deceives the world (Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.)
• Heads of Beast: Seven mountains of Babylon, apparently Rome, which is famous for its 7 hills, is located where ancient Babylon was, and was referred to by early Christians as Babylon (Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.)
• Stars and Candlesticks: Represent the seven churches and their angels - possibly meaning leaders, given usage of the Greek word (Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.)
• Horns of Beast: Kings (Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.)
• Waters: Symbolic for peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages (Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.)

--Jzyehoshua (talk) 00:05, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Even if Revelation is a metaphor for Christian oppression by the Romans, it's been used to "predict" things far wackier. Osaka Sun (talk) 00:11, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I think we all get that Revelation was written to have a meaning to the people it was written for, and not for present day loons anxious to bring on the end of the world. But so what? This isn't a place for biblical exegesis, so much as a place for looking at the damaging aspects of religion, of which current day rapture theorists are clearly one. Damo^Hi 00:15, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm just pointing out that the book of Revelation actually is a brilliantly logical explanation of what would occur that uses code words it explains throughout, and which are consistently used throughout other books of the Bible and even explained in other places, to make its points. It's a work of genius. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 00:28, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Plato's The Republic is a work of genius but that doesn't mean it is divinely inspired. --Damo^Hi 00:30, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Also, other prophecies in the Bible reveal what other language stands for as used in prophecy, for example:

• Olive Trees: Mentioned in Revelation 11:4, they are said to be anointed ones who stand by the Lord (Zechariah 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.)
• Sun, Moon, and 12 Stars: Mentioned in Revelation 12:1, they are specifically said to represent Israel, his wife, and the 12 children, so possibly the 12 tribes of Israel or those who follow God by faith (Genesis 37:9-10 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?)
• Beast: Symbolizes a great kingdom and its ruler, the last beast is a kingdom which will persecute God's people (Daniel 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth... Daniel 7:23-25 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.)
• Another declared parable can be seen in Matthew 13:36-43, where the tares are said to be children of Satan, the good seed God's children, the field to be the world, the harvest the end of the world, and the reapers the angels.
• Trees: Angels, as seen from comparing Ezekiel 28 and 31, an analogy used consistently throughout the Bible
• Time: Refers to a year (the Jewish year was 360 days), so time, times, and half a time is 3.5 years, 42 months, or 1260 days, compare Daniel 7:25, 12:7, Revelation 12:14, 11:2-3, 13:5

Horns by the way are also said to symbolize kings in the book of Daniel as well, e.g. Daniel 8:21.

The books of Revelation and Daniel actually are like two halves of the same prophecy and explain one another.

--Jzyehoshua (talk) 00:25, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, but I suspect you have misjudged your audience. If I wanted to read about your biblical exegeses I wouldn't read it here. Damo^Hi 00:28, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Then why the in-depth article about the book? The article claims the imagery makes no sense. I'm just pointing out it does and is actually really complex and logically consistent throughout the Bible. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 00:31, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

The book of Revelation and other books like Daniel explain the metaphors and symbolism pretty clearly, and actually explain one another. One book will give the explanation of a metaphor used by the other book, and the usage is consistent throughout in prophetic writing, it's pretty impressive, really. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 00:34, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

If you really think you can improve the article then do so, but don't go so heavy on the details, and try not to preach. Damo^Hi 00:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Didn't think I was preaching, I just thought the article was unfairly critical of Revelation's prophecies and explained why. I provided a well-sourced explanation for how the imagery actually explains itself rather than being "hallucinogenic" like the article suggests. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 00:38, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea whether your points are fair or not. If you think you can improve the article then feel free to do so. Damo^Hi 00:42, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm a conservative, pro-life creationist which seems to be what this site strongly dislikes above all else, I'm just here to have a polite discussion. I doubt it would be fair of me to edit in a way the wiki is designed to oppose. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 00:45, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Err... Apparently Rome is located where ancient Babylon was. No, sorry, wrong, simply wrong, and a classic example of retrofitting. Rome and Babylon are around a thousand miles apart. Innocent Bystander (talk) 01:11, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

For some reason I was thinking the empires of Rome and Babylon occupied similar territory, maybe I was wrong about that. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 01:15, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

So, the way argumentation works, is first you have a set of facts, then an argument, then a conclusion. One of your set of facts was "Seven mountains of Babylon" was in Rome. Here's a map of the Babylonian empire [1]. Here's a map of the Roman Empire [2]. Now, given that your facts were, to put it mildly, totally fucking wrong, have you changed your arguments, or your conclusion? Hipo^crite 01:31, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Depends on at what point you're looking at the Roman Empire. Towards the end of the Roman Empire from 480-530 A.D. it almost perfectly overlapped with the Babylonian Empire. Compare this map with this one. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 01:47, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

brilliantly logical explanation of what would occur - under whose logic? Under what conditions? It's a fairy tale to scare the children. Soz. Innocent Bystander (talk) 01:14, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

For multiple books written by different people across thousands of years to use the same obscure terms, in prophetic writing that is so difficult to understand it's spawned numerous interpretations, for those books to use the language consistently, is what I at least consider extremely logical and impressive. If you disagree that's your opinion but I'm sticking by that statement. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 01:21, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

If the prophecy is so valid, predict something, and then we'll run a test, and we'll bet on it, and the loser of the bet will pay money to a charity of the winners choice. I chose Planned Parenthood. What would you like to pick? Hipo^crite 01:34, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

The prophecy seems clear that someone known as the 'Abomination of Desolation' will sit in the Temple of Jerusalem calling himself God to signal the coming of the antichrist's empire, and that a persecution of God's people will last 3.5 years of 360 days each year. When exactly that will occur is anyone's guess. Jesus said only His Father knew the exact timing. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 01:39, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

So your prophecy predicts something at an undisclosed date that will be an undisclosed thing. I predict that the Momtumbo of Rhapsody will sit in the Temple of Christendom calling himself Bob to signal the coming of the romantichrist's empire, and that a persecution of Bob's people will last 23.25 hours of 1 day each year for 7 years. When exactly that will occur is anyone's guess. I say only My Brother knows the exact timing, and he won't tell me. Hipo^crite 01:44, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

For multiple books written by different people across thousands of years to use the same obscure terms, in prophetic writing that is so difficult to understand it's spawned numerous interpretations, for those books to use the language consistently, is what I at least consider extremely logical and impressive. In the words of Mandy Rice Davies, well, they would, wouldn't they. All these books come from people writing within the same tradition so it makes sense that they use the same metaphors.

But then we get to the writing that is so difficult to understand it's spawned numerous interpretations - well, again, that's a common factor with prophecies. The key thing, as any woomyster will tell you, is to keep it vague and open to reinterpretation. This doesn't make it 'logical' any more than the daily horoscope - which uses obscure symbols handed down over the millennia - is logical, or credible. Innocent Bystander (talk) 11:00, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

"Are we sure LSD wasn't discovered before the 20th century?"

No, but magic mushrooms were. 88.144.0.144 (talk) 21:15, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Is the woman crowned with stars

... called Lucy (and looks like [3])?

And what happens if Revelation meets Fimbulwinter? 82.44.143.26 (talk) 16:51, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

It's funny, it isn't?

God, supposedly the good guy, is the one who makes hell to break loose and could have gotten rid of the bad guys since the very starting. I can understand why the Catholic Church was opposed to the printing press and to translate the Bible, and this looking like the result of a very bad trip is the lessest of these evils. --93.191.139.9 (talk) 23:59, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Also, speaking of evil — don't miss our article on the problem of evil. And speaking of Bible translations, don't miss that article, either. All the best, Reverend Black Percy (talk) 18:17, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

• Thanks!. I note I'd have logged in (damned Playbook/unstable public Wi-Fis/whatever). Anyway, to think: a) this is a joke compared to the ways the worldUniverse may end according to science, b) there're Fundies who take it literally and want everyone doing the same... I prefer not to follow. --Panzerfaust (talk) 01:02, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Other revelations

Should the apocryphal Revelations be mentioned - and what about the Bergman film? 86.191.127.54 (talk) 22:34, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

The apocrypha are apocryphal, though anything about them you find useful could be added to the Apocrypha article. Similarly, if there's any good reference or quote about a Bergman film to insert anywhere it's relevant, go for it. But the article here is to be about the actual book of revelation. All the best, Reverend Black Percy (talk) 22:53, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

The chess game is relevant (bear in mind that the text being quoted from is the Swedish version rather than the KJV). Anna Livia (talk) 12:50, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Muito bom! Esta wiki é bem coerente, com piadas inteligentes, críticas e sem fanatismo ou preconceito. Muito melhor que os religiosos da Conservapedia.

Very good! This wiki is very consistent, with intelligent jokes, criticism and without fanaticism or prejudice. Much better than the religious of the Conservapedia. I'm from the Brazillian Uncyclopedia, and I liked the article. 2804:18:6018:93D6:EDDC:8FB0:6B14:DE7D (talk) 14:00, 3 June 2019 (UTC)