Talk:Messianic Judaism

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Ok

Ok, this is the start. I just wanted a core idea up that I will flesh out and reference over the next few days. Yes, I know its currently lacking cites, examples and all that good stuff, but hopefully between doing the intial draft in Word, spellchecking it, grammar checking it, rereading it, then redoing all the checks, I have managed to defeat my arch foe: Dr Typo AllonY (talk) 22:26, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

this is a really biased view of Messianic Judaism - It does not see MJ from it's jewish roots but from it's christian ones. It truly is a syncristic religion in practice, which should be better conveyed. when you all stop your edit conflicts, I'm going to change the tenor a bit. GodotI live in the Infinite monkey cage 22:29, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

(EC) It's massively one-sided & scaremongering. This isn't a Jewish-specific wiki & shouldn't take an explicitly Jewish POV on every issue. ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐ^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 22:33, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

It should actually tell us what the hell it is in the first sentence. PintOfStout Talk Do you think expletives make you look intelligent? I dunno. Do you think being self righteous makes you look like a prick? 22:34, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

And it does just that. And of course it does not see messianic Judaism from Jewish roots because it does nto have Jewish roots. It has zero connection to Judaism, a fact agreed on by every Jewish community world wide.AllonY (talk) 22:52, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, NOW it does that, since the community has whipped it into shape. PintOfStout Talk Do you think expletives make you look intelligent? I dunno. Do you think being self righteous makes you look like a prick? 22:58, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Except the Messianic Jews themselves, presumably. Wěǎšěǐǒǐď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 22:55, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

And how is that relevant? Since when do outsiders from a group get to redefine the group to include them? Can Mexicans redefine themselves as Americans and just cross the border at will or would altering the definition of who is an American require America to do it? Similarly, Jewish law defines who is a Jew, not Christians or people from any other religion.AllonY (talk) 23:03, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

& Messianic Jews observe Jewish law. MJ is rejected by other Jewish denominations because of differing beliefs about who the messiah is, rather than its practices, which follow largely Jewish traditions rather than Christian ones. It's not a case of outsiders redefining a group to include themselves, since most Messianic Jews are converts from mainstream Judaism, and continue to observe Jewish rites, festivals, etc. The fact that the mainstream Jewish community denounces them as apostates does not mean that the rest of the world should. Weaseloid^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 00:05, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually most of them are NOT from Jewish backgrounds, a fact that is seen as an issue by some messianic Jews as it makes it harder for them to attract Jews, http://www.keithhunt.com/jesse/messianicgentiles.htm AllonY (talk) 00:16, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

People make claims of belonging in groups from which they are excluded all the time; think of Black claims to citizenship in the U.S. or South Africa. This is not to say that MJs are oppressed in anything remotely the same way, of course, just to point out that outsiders making claims of membership might best be understood on their own terms. PintOfStout Talk Do you think expletives make you look intelligent? I dunno. Do you think being self righteous makes you look like a prick? 00:10, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Theres a qualitative difference here. The blacks in South Africa were the residents of the area and always had been. Hey, I spent six months in jail for refusing conscription into the SA army in the 1980s. The blacks in the USA, well I am sure Americans can argue the point better than I can, but from an outsiders POV, they were being denied rights that other immigrants were being given. Essentially, an unfair playing field with different laws being applied to different people. Here, the Jewish law defining who is a Jew has been defined in the Torah since 1500 BCE. The law stating that a Jew who converts to another religion ceases to be Jewish is in Shemot (Exodus) 12:43. Regardless of the exact date of its authorship, whether it is divine or not, it is still the legal frame work of Judaism that has been used for over 2000 years. Nothing new, no alterations to exclude a specific group, just an application of Jewish law that has always been there. AllonY (talk) 00:35, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

But as far as they are concerned, they have not converted from Judaism; they are Jews who have recognised the Messiah as Yeshua. They are not redefining Judaism, since the coming of the Messiah is part of traditional Jewish belief throughout history. The fact that you (& other Jews) do not share their beliefs on specifically who the Messiah is does not change the fact that their messianic religion is essentially Jewish. ωεαşεζøίɗ^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 03:09, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Of course they are redefining Judaism. The concept of the messiah in Judaism is completely different from that of Christianity. If you are going to impose a divine Messiah, original sin, the trinity and vicarious atonement onto Judaism, you are altering fundamental elements of Judaism. The rejection of Jesus by Jews is based on the fact that he in no way fits the description of the Messiah (who in Judaism is 100% human) and that Jesus did nothing expected of the Messiah.AllonY (talk) 06:05, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I guess I'll leave this to the community, but I have a huge problem with many of your links. They are not academic links, they are "people" who "somewhere" on the internet say "the jews were wrongfully converted". As for your numbers of who is jewish in these groups, the wikipedia article cites sources that would suggest otherwise. I get that you hate them, but that's really your problem. If you want to dismiss the religion as being stupid on the face of rationality, fine, but your "they aren't jews" screed, and your "they don't really get what judaism is" flys in the face of what Judaism really is. Just saying....GodotI live in the Infinite monkey cage 01:17, 28 December 2011 (UTC) I didn't say that part well, let me try again - if you want to show how this religion is stupid, cause it believes in super natural beings, and in a book written 6000 years ago, be my guest - but if your argument is "we and we alone are jews" then grow up, and get over yourself. There is nothing at all wrong if what they do. No one owns a religion, a nationality, etc. You can feel free to point out all the ways it's not jewish, but generic screeds against one particular religion just annoy me. GodotI live in the Infinite monkey cage 01:19, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree. It's unpleasantly bigotted & the POV isn't consistent with the rest of the site. ωεαşεζøίɗ^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 03:12, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

No one owns a religion, a nationality, etc. What would you reply if a plastic shaman said that to defend himself against protests from legitimate practitioners of American Indian traditions? ListenerX^TalkerX 03:14, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I personally find it annoying, and as an author would make great note to show their heratige, to show where their beliefs come from. I think that is what the re-edit of this article is trying to do. the original is just a screed against them. These people ARE jewish, by and large, Listener. Just as the KKK is christian, and so is Fred Phelps. they are not traditional jews; they are even annoying perhaps. but the majority of the practitioners were born Jewish, and converted their religion. GodotI live in the Infinite monkey cage 03:20, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

The article definitely needs toning down, still, but we must not forget that Phelps is a grade-A heretic, as are Messianic Jews considered from the standpoint of rabbinic Judaism. The KKK is many things, but "Christian" is not one of them, despite the religious tests for membership. ListenerX^TalkerX 04:22, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

This is the simple "no true scotsman", listner. You cannot say who is or is not christian. ultimatly, (assuming it/he is real) only God can say that. If a person says they are a Jew, it's prety hard to say "no you are not". you can claim the authority to do so, but that's only a claim. Even Isreal says "they are still jewish, they are just members of the christian religion". GodotI live in the Infinite monkey cage 04:26, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I guess I would also ask it this way. Why does believing that the messiah make you "not jewish". Who the heck knows of god sent down a messiah and everyone missed it. If you today said "Jesus came to me, as a woman named linda, and she is our new savior", does this make you any less christian, if you were a christian, believe in the second coming, and it came for you. Since all religion is just someone trying to figure out what god wants, and others trying to use that to control the world, at some point there can be no earthly authority other than the one in your heart. (again, assuming god is real).GodotI live in the Infinite monkey cage 04:29, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

You cannot say who is or is not christian. That is actually possible; it is universally agreed upon that a Christian is anyone professing belief in Jesus as messiah. A heretic is a Christian who is at variance with the Nicene Creed in any particular.

In the case of Judaism, the lines of division are somewhat different because of the ethnic component. It is allowed on all hands that the children of Jewish mothers are Jewish, but the Messianic Jews among them have departed the rabbinic tradition. If gentiles convert to Messianic Judaism, they still have not undergone the proper conversion procedure and are not Jews according to the rabbinic tradition.

Since all religion is just someone trying to figure out what god wants... Mine is not. ListenerX^TalkerX 04:50, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually, contrary to has been stated incorrectly here, Israel does NOT recognise Messianic Jews as Jewish, and does recognise any Jew who converts to Messianic Judaism as one that has converted to another religion. Look up the case of Brother Dabiel or the cas eof the Beresfords. All of these were Jews who converted to messianic Judaism, and were denied entrance under the law of return as converts to Christianity. Additionally, the majority of Messianic Jews were not born Jewish, that was the whole oint of a reference to a MESSIANIC JEWISH article showing the worry over the fact that there are so few Jews in the movement that they cannot make Jews comfortable in it. Additionally, statements have been included from every recognised stream of Judaism showing they are not recognised as Jews. Maybe those should be taken out of the reference section and given their own section in the main body. AllonY (talk) 05:50, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Original Sin

I have now read all three articles in Wiki about messianic judaism. I'm no expert, but I find nothing about original sin, and one comment that their view of sin is far closer to the traditional jewish version of sin, and not the Christian concept of "original sin" which is why they hold to Atonement. This should be changed in the article, but my source is just Wiki. Is that sufficient?GodotI live in the Infinite monkey cage 06:30, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

They believe that Jesus came to atone for mankind, in other words, to remove the stain of original sin. One of the reasons for the rejection of Jesus as Messiah in Judaism is precisely because of this. With no original sin, the death of Jesus is simply torturefor absolutely no reason whatsoever. I'll add a link to a messianic Jewish article that directly discusses original sin.AllonY (talk) 06:43, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Original sin was rather a late development in Christianity; the doctrine was only made official after a dust-up involving St. Augustine. Also, Jesus's death is supposed to have atoned for all sins, not just the original kind. ListenerX^TalkerX 06:49, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and Judaism does not have a concept of vicarious atonement. It is clear throughout the Tanakh that atonement only comes if the person repents their deeds. The tanakh disparages sacrifices given only as an outward symbol, and encourages charity and other means of atonement over sacrifices! Y]the counter brought by missionaries to this is to try and claim that the scape goat sacrifice on Yom Kippur was a form of vicarious atonement, but anyone reading the Jewish commentaries on the Torah on this, or its detailed treatment in the Talmud in masechta Yoma would see that it was atonement for the sins of the congregation and those already atoned for by individuals. It did not affect sins that people ha dnot repented for or atoned for on their own.AllonY (talk) 07:05, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Christians are supposed to repent also, even though they (at least in the Protestant view) are not obligated to do anything outwardly to show it. ListenerX^TalkerX 07:15, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Strange, there seem to be thousands of websites, books and missionaries out there telling me that Jesus died for my sins and he was the final lamb of the sacrifice. Yes, Christians are supposed to repent, but at the same time they believe that Jesus died to atone for their sins. There is no similar or related concept anywhere in Judaism AllonY (talk) 07:40, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

History section

The history section presently states that the religion was deliberately created as a conspiracy by "somebody" in order to convert Jews. Shouldn't there be some sources for this?--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 07:14, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm trying to find a link to the source I had since my link is dead. It is stated as such in a letter between the founders of Messianic Judaism, but so far the only live link mentioning it is from a breakaway movement that is so radical in its attacks it cannot be given as a credible reference. I will eventually find the reference, though it might take a few days to loacate in offline sources. AllonY (talk) 07:18, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

OK, well I'll put a fact tag on for now.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 07:19, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Found a reference, not the one I was looking for but a history of the evolution of the Hebrew Christian alliance . A dense read http://www.mcu.edu/papers/mess_jud.htm but the relevant section to this article is 'The 'driving motive' of the early HCAA was deemed to be evangelism, which was seen to fall 'squarely on the shoulders of Hebrew Christians.'. I'll add this reference in AllonY (talk) 07:25, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure that that link says what you want it to say. It earlier talks about a definition of Hebrew Christians as: "a Jew who has accepted Christ as the Messiah and his savior, but who nonetheless chooses to retain his identity as a Jew."

So the link says that they want to convert Jews to their particular religion - not that it's a subtle way to get them to become Christians in, shall we say, the Catholic sense. The thrust of the paragraph with the comment - "They decided that what drove Jews away from being converted was the fact that Christianity did not seem Jewish enough." - implies to my mind some alleged subterfuge at least on the part of "somebody".--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 09:24, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

If the movement was deliberately - and presumably secretly - created by Christians with a particular agenda that would certainly be most interesting. But we would really need to be very sure of our facts in order to avoid any conspiracy - wingnut accusations. --Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 07:30, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

From what I can see, it was mostly made by ethnic Jews who wanted to keep more Jewish rituals than their predecessors, the Hebrew Christians, believed to be acceptable. ListenerX^TalkerX 07:33, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Nothing secret about it, and nobody claims it was secret or hidden. The more interesting fact in that article is that originally the HCAA did not want to observe Jewish law at all, and it changed into its Jewish form in the late 1960s. Originally the HCAA was just one of many Christian evangelical and missionary organisations, just wit a Jewish flavour to their practices but without the Jewish trappings they adopted in the 1970s

And the majority, then, as now, were non-jews, but with a few prominent Jewish members that frequenty set the tone. The article there does not discuss numbers etc, just mentioning the leadership who were generally Jews that had converted to Christianity through more traditional Christian movements AllonY (talk) 07:35, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok, they have a facebook group including their history! Question is, what is the policy of that as a reference? AllonY (talk) 07:43, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

What do you mean by "non-Jew" there? Do you mean the child of a gentile mother, or someone who does not follow rabbinic Judaism? ListenerX^TalkerX 07:49, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I mean someone that does not qualify as a Jew under Jewish law, In other words, a non-Jewish mother or conversion to Judaism through an unrecognized source. There are Messianic Jews who claim to be Jewish based on their conversion to Messianic Judaism (actually a controversial topic in Messianic Judaism on whether conversion should be aloowed, encouraged or discouraged) who are obviously not recognised as Jews by any mainstream Jewish organisation AllonY (talk) 07:54, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

article

Came across this link which looks interesting.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 14:38, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I honestly disagree with the tone of the article

From what I have been reading, a lot of Messianic Jews are ethnically Jewish for starters. Second, not all Jews are ethnically Jewish. Third, religion is religion, nobody truly owns it. --Non-Binary EAS Creator (talk) 17:42, 7 March 2022 (UTC)