Talk:Pantera

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This Pantera guy didn't exist, you people are idiots

You RationalWiki assholes don't even take the time to explain this, even Wikipedia admitd to this. You douche bags will say anything to continue your agenda. ^{— Unsigned, by: 66.87.114.133 / talk / contribs}

You can't possibly be suggesting Phil Anselmo was never real! ConCass (talk) 19:29, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

If Pantera didn't exist, why does his tombstone? Mʀ. Wʜɪsᴋᴇʀs, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 15:36, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Given the rest of the BoN's post, they mean the mythical one. You are conflating him with the owner of the tombstone, which is quite a large jump even if we assume that the rape story is true. (Which is unlikely.)--ZooGuard (talk) 15:44, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

You might want to comment here as well.--Bob^{"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that."} 15:45, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Whoops. I thought BON meant "Tiberius", which is relevant to the tombstone, but he/she meant "father of Jesus", which isn't. Thanks Zoo. Mʀ. Wʜɪsᴋᴇʀs, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 15:50, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

truth-and-justice.info

Oh, my.--ZooGuard (talk) 17:53, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Yep, that link is dead now. Mʀ. Wʜɪsᴋᴇʀs, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 18:03, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Quote mining the bible

I know the section starts of by saying "The Bible, if read in a certain way, ...", but I've got a problem with this whole section Gospel support.

Other verses in the same gospels talk about angels talking to both Mary and Joseph to give them information. We disregard these as obviously false. But then we use other verses as if they are reliable testimony in an attempt to support the point the article is making.

Surely if you are going to disregard parts of the story as obviously false it's not reasonable to then cherry-pick other parts of the story and present them as true because they can be construed to support the hypothesis.--Bob^{"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that."} 11:33, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The whole section reminds me unpleasantly of the way conspiracy theorists try to read emotions and motivations into the behavior of people, e.g. the whole "they look guilty" thing attached to the Apollo 11 post-landing conference. It also suggests that FuzzyCatPotato really wants to believe in the bloody thing, which is... disappointing.--ZooGuard (talk) 12:16, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I didn't make that section, I just didn't delete it. It certainly is quotemining. Please, add contradictory verses.

ZooGuard, you'll notice that I debunked another set of verses from the Bible immediately below, about Jesus' trip to Sidon. If I want to believe it, why would I do so? Mʀ. Wʜɪsᴋᴇʀs, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 13:40, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I apologize - I read the first sub-section and on a first look, the next one look the same, so I didn't notice the debunking. It was sloppy on my part. As a general rule of debunking style, though, suspect material should be presented as such, e.g. "X claims that the argument is supported by the Gospel... but...", instead of directly reproducing the claim.--ZooGuard (talk) 18:46, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I don't believe for a moment that Fuzy.C.P believes it. I'm just pointing out that the Gospels are not good evidence for anything. The gospels were written many years after the death of Jesus (whoever he may have been) by people who were not there and who had had no contact with the alleged protagonists - so minutely analysing them in an effort to discern subtle evidence is rather a waste of time. I would be inclined to delete the whole section.--Bob^{"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that."} 15:27, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The only reason I would keep it (now) is so that we can debunk the claim of the support of the Gospels, by providing the alternate verse. Since Christians may be inclined to believe the Gospels as teh TRUTH, it's worthwhile for a discussion of Christian-related stuff. (Same as the Biblical contradictions page, we need to discuss what Christians believe). Mʀ. Wʜɪsᴋᴇʀs, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 22:34, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

1. These are obviously quote mines which attempt to make the Gospel account say something which it clearly doesn't.

2. Following from the above it treats the the non-magic parts of the gospel story as though they were reliable while ignoring the far more significant magical parts.

3. No part of the Gospel is any any way historically reliable anyway. The people who wrote it can have had no idea how long Mary spent with a relative, how many times Jesus visited Sidon or what were the exact words used by the angels when they spoke to Joseph.

4. Using information which you know to be false in order to prove a point is akin to the Christian practice of Lying for Jesus. We have taken information from a source which has no credibility and then manipulated in an effort to make it mean something else. This is unethical. The fact that the unreliable and subsequently manipulated source has some credibility to the people the people we may be trying to persuade does not justify it.

5. Although you state that this information is in the article in an effort to persuade Christians it gives the impression that we, as RW, feel that the Bible can be used as a reliable source for such information. How are non-Christians supposed to know that we have used this information only to persuade Christians and that we do not really believe that the bible is historically accurate?--Bob^{"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that."} 09:10, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

How's this edit? Mʀ. Wʜɪsᴋᴇʀs, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 17:48, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

*cough* Mʀ. Wʜɪsᴋᴇʀs, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 01:32, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

OK, so I see you've qualified it with "if we accept the bible as being true" - but if we accept that, then we accept that Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit and that angels explained the nature of the problem to everybody.

If, on the other hand if we don't accept it to be a reliable account, then quoting it in a highly selective manner to prove points is a waste of time as, well, we don't accept it to be true. (Not to mention being disingenuous.)

I understand that you are trying to accommodate my position and I appreciate that. But I still think the whole section is problematic and we would be better off without it.--Bob^{"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that."} 12:39, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

So I'll delete in 48 hours unless it can be justified.--Bob^{"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that."} 17:23, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

How I see it:

Tabor claims that said verses of the Gospels support his position.

We provide reasons that, even if we were to accept the Gospels as true, that the Gospels would contradict Tabor's position.

Basically, it's debunking Tabor.

Mʀ. Wʜɪsᴋᴇʀs, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 22:34, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

So? Mʀ. Wʜɪsᴋᴇʀs, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 05:06, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

So I've given you multiple reasons showing why we shouldn't use this argument. But as the only person who seems to care about it is me I've decided not to fight the issue. :-) So good luck with it.--Bob^{"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that."} 21:00, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

All right. Thanks! ^_^ Mʀ. Wʜɪsᴋᴇʀs, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 21:18, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Still crap

Though reading it again I still think it's crap. (But I'll only mention it from time to time.)--Bob^{"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that."} 15:54, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

I may pay it a visit after I'm done with the Soviet Union.--ZooGuard (talk) 16:05, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Dalmatia

The article states:

"[...] the First Cohort of Archers, to which Pantera belonged, had moved to Dalmatia (in Germany) in 6 AD [...]"

Dalmatia is a region now located in present-day Croatia. [1]

As far as I can find, there never was a Dalmatia anywhere else, not in the Roman Empire at least. Is there something I'm missing here? Kvltcat (talk) 05:42, 23 December 2015 (UTC)