Talk:Singularity

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Interesting[edit]

worth reading

http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/46197-essay-against-ai-singularity/

  • Any essays against biological singularity (extra-smart modified humans) and against hive-mind singularity (hive mind smarter than sum of it's parts)? --Jniawqjinhg (talk) 17:33, 3 July 2025 (UTC)

Sounds like nonsense to me[edit]

"A singularity has no dimensions because it contains all dimensions, and it also contains all the laws of physics"

Transhuman intelligence as magic[edit]

"this view of the singularity does treat transhuman intelligence as some kind of magic."

I'm wondering what the justification for that claim is? Not sure if it's well-reasoned but with no nuance or reasoning mentioned here, or just dismissive out of hand. Strong claims that we will absolutely see transhuman intelligence are arguably unjustified at this point, but speculating about it cautiously isn't predicated upon a belief it's magic. All that's required is a belief that it's plausible and that we can still discuss it substantively even without having any clue what technology would enable it. Doing so cautiously is very different from acting like it's inevitable magic. — Unsigned, by: 128.12.122.86 / talk / contribs

On talk pages, please sign your comments using four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking on the sign button: SigButt.png on the toolbar above the edit panel. You can also indent successive talk page comments using one more colon (:) for each line. Thank you. —cosmikdebris talk stalk 22:47, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
Magic could also be defined as “unexplainable” or “inexplicable”. If there is no plausible model or adequate explanation to establish the grounds to why such a thing is possible then in a real sense it’s sort of a magical proposition. That’s true of any speculative claim about advanced technology that isn’t currently possible. - Only Sort of Dumb (talk) 23:49, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Another prediction[edit]

This Anna Livia (talk) 23:07, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

As the above has disappeared into a singularity, here here is another story. Anna Livia (talk) 00:48, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Remember[edit]

Equivalent fears probably existed in the past (and eg condemning writing as making people forgetful, teaching 'the working classes' to read and write will make them disinclined to do the work they have been assigned). Humans can adapt to varying degrees - and are more flexible in the environments in which they can live than 'the singularity' while 'the hive mind' is a thing that the singularity cannot belong to. Anna Livia (talk) 12:59, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm much more worried about climate change and ecocide than AI and/or the forcible "upgrading" of humanity, whatever that may entail. Vee (talk) 14:04, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Correlation between brain size and intelligence[edit]

  • There is correlation between brain size and intelligence, albeit it's debated. In evolution of ancient humans, there is correlation between brain size and "smartness" (tool complexity, culture, etc). Additionally, other parameters of the brain, like neuron connectivity/wrinkled-ness could also be modified; intelligence is [per-pound intelligence]*[brain mass]. Also, the key factor is not brain size of certain specimen, but average brain size of species. Use translator for some cases. If that's not enough sources - i'll find even more sources. Wikipedia: Brain Size Evolution of the brain. Other sources: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17]. --Jniawqjinhg (talk) 14:54, 27 June 2025 (UTC)
You can feel free to provide sourced (preferably non-Wikipedia) and relevant claims to the article, but it is important to note that there is no consensus that the link is causal. English references would be preferred, but I'm pretty sure Russian ones will do in a pinch. If most of your sources is Russian, you can always contribute to the Russian RationalWiki. Thanks for bringing this to the talk page.      – Regards, Avarice 15:17, 27 June 2025 (UTC)
* if most of your sources are Russian      – Regards, Avarice 15:18, 27 June 2025 (UTC)
There's another (third) Wikipedia page - Superintelligence. They say that methods which "permit humans to evolve larger heads" can be used to achieve "intelligence surpassing that of the brightest and most gifted human minds". Which - with Brain Size and Evolution of the brain - again, fit into "Bigger Brain = Smarter" paradigm. --Jniawqjinhg (talk) 15:21, 10 September 2025 (UTC)
Yet, all other parameters which increase intelligence, could also be increased. After all, the "modified to be smarter human" could have bigger brain and more neuron connectivity and more wrinkled brain and more gray matter and even more extra neurons grafted onto his brain and direct mind-machine interface implanted so he utilizes multiple ultra-tech unconventional computers (like quantum computers) and his brain is connected to brains of other supergeniuses forming Hive mind smarter than sum of it's components. --95.167.183.120 (talk) 09:20, 1 July 2025 (UTC)
Obviously at one level there is a correlation. In part because we are simply bigger than our early ancestors, but it's really complicated. Neanderthals had bigger brains than us - but they were also bigger than us. The brain of a blue whale would dwarf an human one - though as a percentage of body mass it's smaller.
Finally, women have smaller brains than men on average because they are smaller on average. But I am not aware of any research which demonstrates that women are consequently less smart (at least no such "research" since Victorian times.)
I am also not really sure what this has to do with the article.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 12:53, 1 July 2025 (UTC)
Extra-smart "bighead" humans (this text you're reading) and super-smart Hive mind are 2 alternative methods to kick-start Singularity via Rapid Self-Improvement without relying on AI's. --95.167.183.120 (talk) 15:54, 1 July 2025 (UTC)
One thing i forgot to mention: intelligence increase due to brain increase is non-linear for anyone but "brain in the jar". Bigger brain (or generally, any extra-smart brain - as smarter ones need more energy) needs bigger vital organs to supply, bigger organs need bigger body to carry; bigger organs and bigger body means more cells to control, therefore part of newly-gained brain tissue goes to controlling those extra cells. In other words: if one has 10 times bigger brain, he's not 10 times smarter (though definitely smarter nonetheless) - because some of his newly-gained processing power is used to micromanage his massive body required to supply and move his brains. --95.167.183.120 (talk) 15:51, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

About ancient hominid argument[edit]

Let's say about tool complexity in ancient hominid and brain size ([18], [19]):

  1. Early Stone Tools (Oldowan Industry), 2.5 million years ago: Basic stone tools, such as choppers and scrapers, were made by striking a core (like a rounded cobble) with a hammerstone to remove flakes. Simple, requiring few sequential actions. Humans are like Australopithecus garhi and Homo habilis, brain volume about 450 cc (27 cubic inches), and 500 to 900 cm^3 (31–55 cu in) respectively.
  2. Bifacial Tools (Acheulean Industry), 1.5 million years aro: Increased significantly with the production of large hand axes and other tools made by removing flakes from both surfaces of a core (bifacial shaping). Required more skill and allowed for longer-lasting sharp edges and heavy-duty work, including bone processing and woodworking. Humans are Homo Ergaster, brain volume 600-910 cc.
  3. Middle Pleistocene: 300,000 years ago. Rapid technological advancements, including the development of blade production and the sophisticated Levallois reduction technique. These innovations mark a key phase in the development of cumulative culture, which is essential for creating complex tools and technologies. This period also saw the consistent use of fire and the construction of wooden structures. Humans are late Homo Hidelbergensis, early Denisovans, brain size about as big as modern humans, or only one tad smaller.
  4. Late Pleistocene and Upper Paleolithic: Tools became even more refined, and hafted tools (stone blades affixed to handles) became common. Hominins began using a wider variety of materials, including bone, for crafting more specialized tools. The complexity of these technologies underscores the continued social transmission of knowledge and the increasing sophistication of cognitive abilities in hominins. Humans are mostly anatomically modern, with big heads - 1260 cm3 in men and 1130 cm3 in women.
  5. So we see direct positive correlation between tool complexity and brain volume. So it's highly likely, that further increasing brain size would result in corresponding increase of tool complexity. Assuming, that tools of superhuman with ≈2500 cm3 would at least transcend tools of modern humans, like tools of anatomically modern caveman transcend tools of Australopithecus or Homo Habilis - we would get straight into sci-fi territory.

--Jniawqjinhg (talk) 16:13, 10 September 2025 (UTC)

Mythology?[edit]

Well, some parts about Singularity seem to look like religion or mythology. For example:

  1. The Singularity happening looks not unlike "grand event which would happen in future and flip the world on it's head", like The End Times and Ragnarok.
  2. The Singularity apparently has some "gods", which are consciously or sub-consciously worshipped by Singularitans. At least, one god is "The Metal One" perhaps, patron of super-intelligent AIs and cyborgs; another, relatively smaller deity, is "The Flesh One", patron of super-intelligent living beings; yet another is patron of pre-singularity (non-superintelligent) augmented people, and yet another is patron of post-singularity/transhumanist extraterrestrials. IDK of any of those "gods" is properly referred to or named. Such "god of Singularity"/"God-Machine" is god of knowledge, crafts, science (to the point of being incomprehensible to normals), wealth (entire planets grinded for resources), war (assimilating everyone), art, destruction (dismantling star systems for computronium), creation (including pocket universes), unpredictability, luck (calculate everything for good outcomes). Plus actual Singularity stories end up with creation of godlike super-intelligence.
  3. Said powerful super-intelligences are not unlike the total inversion of The Titans. The Titans and such are unfathomably strong beings of far past, while super-intelligent AIs and augmented masterminds are unfathomably strong beings of far future.

If you found more correlations with religion and mythology, comment me. --Jniawqjinhg (talk) 17:30, 9 September 2025 (UTC)

I would say that the most obvious potential god-figure in the "singularity extended universe" is Roko's basilisk. If you fail to properly propitiate it, it will send your high-tech soul to a technological hell. I don't think any of the Basilisk worshippers have yet considered that it might send them to technological heaven for good behavior - but if you have swallowed the first part then the second should be easy.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:16, 10 September 2025 (UTC)
Nah. Roko's basilisk is a Less-Than-Average Demon at most and Saturday Morning Cartoon Villain at average. It's psychotic, stupid AI which alienates everyone and wastes resources on torturing people. Actual gods of "singularity extended universe" are different - being actually smart and wise. --Jniawqjinhg (talk) 21:03, 13 September 2025 (UTC)