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Gender presentation[edit]

The way its worded is unique to trans women, while others face parallel issues they are for different reasons and have different effects while on the surface appearing similar. Sorry but being accused of men pretending to be women is just not something that happens to trans men. — Unsigned, by: Laurelai / talk / contribs

Fair enough.
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Nullahnung (talk) 02:38, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
The way it's worded is "This kind of horrible catch 22 is unique to trans women". We could say that this specific catch 22 is specific to trans women, but when talking about that kind of catch 22, I don't see it as dissimilar to the situation faced by trans women - being accused of being women pretending to be men seems pretty comparable to being accused of being men pretending to be women. WėąṣėḷőįďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 07:21, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
In theory, that parallel makes sense, but I'm not aware of trans men coming under that kind of scrutiny, and I think it's because of the way society perceives masculine and feminine behavior. Masculinity takes many forms; there is less pressure on a trans man to conform to one specific "type" of masculinity than for a trans woman to conform to a particular form of femininity. Think about your typical sitcom: a cast of men with wildly different personalities, but one woman who is just The Chick. Our culture sees masculinity as heterogeneous and femininity as homogeneous, so deviation from a norm is more permissible in men (so long as they don't embrace femininity). Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 07:29, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
But there is also pressure on cis women to conform to a particular form of femininity. WeaseloidWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 07:31, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
True, but without the threat of not being considered a "real woman" underlying it, or at least not to nearly the same extent. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 07:33, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Y-yeah. I'm pretty sure tomboys, while facing some amount of pressure to be more feminine I'm sure, are still considered cool/desirable/acceptable, or at least moreso than effeminate men. It's a different kind of pressure and similarly to that maybe we should also just consider the pressure that trans women and the pressure that trans men face as different kinds. Nullahnung (talk) 11:07, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
The thing is, the points you all are bringing up are the very crux of the whole issue- and don't have a solution that you are looking for, because it is at the core of why gay men are harrassed, and trans women vs., trans men (if I'm using the terms right). Giving up your penis is about the single worst thing you can do in this society, cause it's saying you don't want to be the NORM, you are choosing to be the Weak, the Evil (as in Eve), the oppressed. I suspect there is some level of harassment against women who become men as "pretenders" or "fake" or "trying to get a leg up" in society, though I don't know. but the harassers *understand* it, because who wouldn't want to be the Privileged white male. To deny yourself the privileged - well that's just sick and wrong! My own personal view of this article and conversation is that we shouldn't try to fix and balance it, but treat it as what it is, a place for discussion of theories about gender in our culture. Just my 3 cents.One tin soldier (talk) 15:37, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
We shouldn't try to fix it? Surely addressing misconceptions deeply rooted in culture is bang on mission? ·Femilisk 15:46, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
From speaking to trans friends, the bigots view transmen as women dressed up and therefore mere women, just as they view transwomen as men dressed up but less than real men (and never mind their penises twitching). YMMV big time, of course - David Gerard (talk) 18:48, 16 June 2014 (UTC)


Is degendering primarily a media representation issue or is it broader? Is the media text in the article just a good example and not the sole degendering issue? MarmotHead (talk) 20:11, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Its broader. --Laurelai (talk) 00:51, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
It's definitely broader. I would argue that it affects both transgender men and transgender women negatively (for instance, the "lumping together" of transgender people often leads to the presumption that the only transgender people are transgender women, in turn leading to identity erasure of transgender men) --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 01:10, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
No im afraid thats not how it works. Umbrella terms set the default as center, read Heterosexualism and the Colonial / Modern Gender System --Laurelai (talk) 15:19, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Section merge suggestion[edit]

In my outsider read, there are two pairs of sections that seem to be duplicative. Assumption of male privilege seems to include Gender presentation in that both seem to relate to patriarchy and assumed default male behavior. Hypersexualization and desexualization and Media representation read like one and a half aspects of the same point. I'd just merge them (without deleting points), but I'm not knowledgeable enough to believe I'm understanding the true point beneath these. MarmotHead (talk) 15:41, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

They are not duplicative even though they are all somewhat related to the fact trans women are not seen as real women by society at large. --Laurelai (talk) 16:26, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
OK. Thanks! That guides me down the harder road of addressing my ignorance. If I lose enough ignorance, feel free to re-factualize my subsequent edits! MarmotHead (talk) 16:44, 23 June 2014 (UTC)


With all this sort of thing, I is more than clear that Americans are only concerned with trivialities. — Unsigned, by: / talk 20:28, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree; it's ridiculous that people get so freaked out about what genitals another person has. --Ymir (talk) 21:32, 28 July 2016 (UTC)


Should transmisandry be a section or another article? (talk) 12:05, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Not heard of transmisandry, but there's no reason to think it would never happen. If you've come across any, write it into this article as a new section, unless you find enough to merit a whole article (we're in an anti-stubs mood at the moment). Also a redirect to the section would be good. (talk) 14:31, 3 August 2017 (UTC)


Reference 7 is a blog post citing one woman’s anecdotal experience (not a credible source) and reference 8 is just an image. Please add actual credible sources instead. --Nucu (talk) 20:39, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Filing that under nice to have but no time to do now. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 21:51, 5 March 2020 (UTC)