RationalWiki:Articles for deletion/Hanne Tolg Parminter

Hanne Tolg Parminter | Result: Keep

Hanne Tolg Parminter (edit|talk|history|protect|delete|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Delete

1. Non-public, non-notable person. Does not deserve to have the first of the few Google results on her name return an encyclopedia-like entry calling her "batshit crazy", "islamophobe", "crank", "anti-immigration advocate", "racist", "authoritarian wingnut" and "nationalist". RW is being used as an attack site. Slimy goop (talk) 16:37, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Keep

1. Keep. She has been a subject of a high profile controversy (eg. [1]) and is one of the most active and one of three highlighted/staff bloggers (now full time apparently) on the well known anti-Muslim/anti-immigrant blog Document.no. There she writes about all the crimes that Muslims and other "immigrants" commit and so on. She has a high profile, under her own name, in the Norwegian blogosphere, with numerous articles by her on Document.no, the largest Norwegian anti-immigrant website/blog/forum. Millicent (talk) 16:46, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

   Daily Post is not a high-profile newspaper. Besides, the article doesn't even mention her name, so you're drawing your own conclusions. Document.no is critical of Islam, but can hardly be called islamophobic in the same way as Gates of Vienna or Fjordman. You're welcome to provide specific quotes of what she has said or written (with citations) that you deem to be islamophobic. --Slimy goop (talk) 17:07, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

   Document.no is considered to be Islamophobic by countless sources, several of which are cited in the article, and is also high profile with extensive media coverage in Norwegian and international media, and a significant readership. It's not simply "critical of Islam" (in the sense I and other non-racists and atheists may be when it comes to certain aspects or religion itself), it's specifically anti-Muslim. While the Daily Post didn't mention her name, she has outed herself as the person in question in an article on Document.no (per the references section). Millicent (talk) 17:14, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

   Please provide references here to reliable and easily accessible sources that deem Document.no to be islamophobic. References to obscure books by obscure authors are not sufficient. Anyway, she is not Document.no, she's simply a writer on the website. Different people hold different views. She doesn't necessarily agree with everything that has ever been written there. --Slimy goop (talk) 17:29, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

   Just read the Wikipedia article on document.no. Anders Breivik went to some "Friends of Document.no" party. It's very clear our article is missional and relevant.---Mona- (talk) 17:40, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

   Fair enough, Mona. Norwegian Centre Against Racism deems Document.no to be borderline islamophobic. I trust that organization, so I'll agree with them. Still, the article here on Hanne Tolg (and on many others) is going overboard with nasty labels, and it has an impact on someone's life. For heaven's sake, the article comes out top on Google search on her name! --Slimy goop (talk) 18:07, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

   That particular article has been heavily edited by supporters of the website who naturally try to whitewash it as much as possible, and the history shows much back and forth. Norwegian newspapers have written about Islamophobes waging a war on Wikipedia in articles like that one to portray racist Islamophobia as legitimate [2]. Millicent (talk) 18:13, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

   It is an "anti-immigrant forum which has evolved into a hotbed of galloping Islamophobia" Aftenposten). It is "a website rife with anti-Muslim and hard right rhetoric". (Financial Times) "There are also citizens' websites like Document.no, where Anders Behring Breivik left racist, extremist right-wing comments along with fellow anti-Muslims, and there were attempts to start up Norwegian satellite groups in support of the English Defence League" (BBC) And according to Norway's most prominent humanist, Lars Gule, it is "a far-right web forum" that is "dominated by Islamophobic and anti-immigration commentary" (per ref section of the article on the site). An official report of the Norwegian Police University College cites it as an example of an "extremist website" alongside Stormfront and Gates of Vienna (the report here on the website of the Norwegian central government[3], p. 28). Millicent (talk) 17:50, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

2. Keep. She's certainly something of a deal in Norway and a good example of the Islamophobic crank. No reason at all to delete.---Mona- (talk) 17:19, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
3. Keepity keep. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 17:26, 8 October 42015 AQD (UTC)
4. Deletion argument is unconvincing. --"Paravant" ^{Talk & Contribs} 18:07, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
5. An underreasearched tabloid opinion piece in Norway doesn't really warrant an iota of change here at RW. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 01:49, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
6. Carpetsmoker (talk) 03:18, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Goat

I'm a bit aprehensive about some of these articles created by Millicent. This morning I (coindicentally) stumbled on Mona Levin with some pretty strong claims and no real references to back it up, and I couldn't really find any references, either. The article's a bit toned down now, but I still see few references and fairly strong claims (also see talk page). For Document.no, we write that it's "Islamophobic and extremist" and that it "strongly promotes racism", but on the other wiki I read that "the Norwegian Centre Against Racism considers it only borderline"... So, meh ... Since almost all resources (if any) for these claims are in Norwegian, it's very difficult for me (non-Norwegian) to vet these claims, but I fear we're (and by "we", I mean Millicent , since he/she is the only one writing these articles) going a bit over the-top here. It smells too political. Carpetsmoker (talk) 21:31, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

"these articles created by Millicent"? I did not create this article. The Wikipedia article on Document.no has been the subject of constant attempts to whitewash the website as its history shows, and is some sort of compromise now between Islamophobic editors and normal editors, but RW is not Wikipedia, not NPOV, and not an encyclopedia, and I don't see the point of selectively citing the quotes in Wikipedia that the website's supporters have added to the article. The Wikipedia article also includes many other opinions which clearly describe it as Islamophobic. Also, for the record, Millicent is a female name. Millicent (talk) 21:48, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

"RW is not wikipedia" doesn't mean anyone can just say anything we want on any article. It has to somehow, you know, reflect reality in a vaguely reasonable ("rational") way. Slapping "islamophobia!" (or similar terms) on everything is just damn silly. Again, I'm not saying these people aren't Islamophobes, just that it's hard to judge (for me), and in at least 2 cases it seems it's rather exaggerated. Criticism of Islam (even hash criticism) is not the same as islamophobia. Same with (strong) Israel opponents: these people are not necessarily racist. This actually hurts our cause, by the way, since people who don't agree with us will probably just dismiss a page out-of-hand if it starts with erroneous or dubious snarl words... Carpetsmoker (talk) 03:12, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

The article on Document.no, and the article on Hanne Tolg Parminter (which I did not create), both include several solid references, quite a few of them in English, that clearly show that Document.no is a large and well known (or rather notorious) Islamophobic website, mainly concerned with writing negatively about Muslims and immigration. Where have I said criticism of Islam is the same as islamophobia? I've said the exact opposite. I can't see that either of those articles exaggerate anything or contain anything "erroneous", on the contrary they are well sourced and fact-based. The criticism of Document.no has been very harsh in mainstream media and scholarship for many years, and it would easy to find a whole bunch of other references that describe them as racist and Islamophobic, but it wouldn't really add much to the articles in question since that has already been established quite thoroughly. Millicent (talk) 03:32, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Just tossing in that: 1. It's generally best not to use references in a foreign language not accessible to the vast majority of English speakers, and 2. I don't care if WP thinks a site is "borderline." They go thru the same political tugs of war we do here and all that may mean is that this "compromise" language won out. Based on what is documented at the RW article, I'm reasonably persuaded Document.no qualifies as Islamophnobic, even excluding the Norwegian references.---Mona- (talk) 05:53, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

It stands at 6-1 to keep the article. What happens now? Can we remove the call for deletion at the article page?---Mona- (talk) 17:32, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

It should be noted, to those who do not read Norwegian, that Millicient and Mona represent quite extreme positions and seem to use RationalWiki for their own personal vendettas. Both Mona Levin and Hanne Tolg are respected writers. Writers with views, but nothing that warrants the vitriolic language used in these articles. I still support deleting the articles. At least, this page should be kept to document that someone asked some questions Megad (talk) 17:25, 2 January 2017 (UTC)