RationalWiki talk:NavTree

Wouldn't this be better off in the mediawiki namespace? ħuman 16:14, 21 June 2008 (EDT)

Aye, your probably right, but due to historical contingency we must make do with the lot in life we are dealt. tmtoulouse ^heckle 16:22, 21 June 2008 (EDT)

Nice way to say you wrote something that needed copyediting ;) Actually, on a wiki, we can undo teh bad, bad evilution and overcome previous hysterical incontinence with improovemints on the customer's pillow. ħuman 21:22, 21 June 2008 (EDT)

I edited the old "Tithe to RationalWiki" joke to read:

Join the supporters
of RationalWiki
with your donation

Comments on how to improve it further are welcome. ħuman 20:38, 26 June 2008 (EDT)

New box

Wait I thought it was just going to be a single link to "all logs" followed by the WIGO links? I am not so sure that three links to block/deleting/user rights is really worth having. tmtoulouse ^heckle 16:37, 23 August 2008 (EDT)

True. I forgot that when I wrote the stuff for my test a while ago, I hadn't really thought out what the links should be -- they were just stubs.

How about: All logs, WIGO fork, all pages? <font=""; face="Comic Sans MS">Jellyfish!^{That isn't science, that's Pac-Man!} 16:42, 23 August 2008 (EDT)

I can see value to the four WIGOs. So many of the others are really a matter of personal whim I would say no to virtually any of them. After all it is so simple to just bookmark a bunch of things in one drop down in the personal toolbar thing. I could understand a link to the logs page, and one to the admin user list (not all users, that's just plain silly). Let's sandbox versions here...

What is going on? WIGO CP WIGO blogs WIGO clogs WIGO world Useful links Logs Site admin list

Feel free to make new ones... ħuman 17:49, 23 August 2008 (EDT)

PS, I think that what I just made looks horrible. ħuman 17:49, 23 August 2008 (EDT)

What is going on?

WIGO CP WIGO blogs WIGO clogs WIGO world

Useful links

Logs Site admin list

tmtoulouse ^heckle 17:56, 23 August 2008 (EDT)

I must now say that I am completely against this idea. People can make their own bookmarks easily enough, can't they? It's so easy to build a "personal toolbar" tab that has every link one considers useful. There is no way to determine what would make sense to add to the site in general. ħuman 00:22, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

I must say I like the idea. I find navigating around Conservapedia easier that here. More links, with in reason, the better. $\approx$$\pi$ 00:27, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

I repeat, in different words: "make your own bookmarks". It ain't rocket science, and it will have the links you want. ħuman 01:18, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

I'm going to have to say that I agree with human here. And quite frankly, I find CP a pain to navigate, due primarily to the excessive links. Pinto's5150 ^Talk 02:46, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Take the "Main Page" link off the logo, I'm constantly hitting it on my way to back (heavy fingers on laptop mouse pad thing!) No? Oh well, I suppose I can live with it - sorry I brought it up. Move "Random page" from Nav to toolbox. No more linkses - there's too many already. If you include recentchanges header there's a zillion ± 1. I've got toolbar bookmarks for 1 or two & normal bookmarks for the rest - they're what I want & would probably be a waste for anyone else.   ^Contribs_Talk 03:49, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

This sort of thing could be a good idea for new members. We'd need to explain what WIGO is though.--Bob^{bing up} 04:11, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

(unident) The navbox isn't really for us experienced users it is for newbies. If someone see vandalism what are they going to do, sift through mountains of help files until they find the one they want, or click a clearly marked box on the side. The logs are useful in the same way recent changes are, you can see what is happening to see if someone else has dealt with something. Also on the topic can we use the purge template on recent changes labeled something like "more recent changes". $\approx$$\pi$ 04:17, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Human and Chaos argue about how many angels might dance on a pinhead

So how will a newbie even identify vandalism? Newbies check logs to "see what's going on"? What is this "purge" template you speak of to use on RC? ħuman 05:11, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Purge or you can set it to Click this button to refresh or More Recent Changes (this will only work on the recent changes page as it purges the current page you are one). You can spot vandalism vary easily, blank page, stupid ascii pictures, message talking about what a great person Joel Smith is even though you have never heard of him. $\approx$$\pi$ 05:35, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

As far as logs (well, "all logs" at least) go, they seem fairly useless to me, due to the majority of the content being "Patrolled" edits. Pinto's5150 ^Talk 06:31, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Human: It's for new users, primarily. Having all the important links present on the sidebar makes it much easier to acclimatize yourself to the structure of the site. It has nothing to do with established users.

Pinto: "all logs" by itself is not very helpful, but it's where you go to get to the more vital logs, like blocking and deletion. <font=""; face="Comic Sans MS">Jellyfish!^{That isn't science, that's Pac-Man!} 09:59, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

@Chaos, newbies either won't know what to expect in the log links, or aren't newbies and will know where to go anyway. But I did have a thunk - how about one link, to "useful links", where we list everything we can think of and describe what they mean, and suggest that people make their own bookmark list of the ones they think they'd like one-click service to? That way we can add everything anyone ever found useful, without excess clutter on every screen. ħuman 15:32, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Let's do that with the whole sidebar. It could just be "Link to sidebar links". Then it wouldn't be cluttered at all. <font=""; face="Comic Sans MS">Jellyfish!^{That isn't science, that's Pac-Man!} 15:34, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Besides, your definition of newbie just doesn't work. I remember a period when I couldn't always find the logs I wanted, despite knowing what they were. And you can't deny that WIGO links would be useful. <font=""; face="Comic Sans MS">Jellyfish!^{That isn't science, that's Pac-Man!} 15:36, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

What exactly is your definition of "newbie"? The only link one needs to know about to access all kinds of stuff is "special pages". ħuman 17:17, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Yes, and by the same logic, the only link you need is "RationalWiki.com". Once you're there, you obviously understand everything inside, so you won't be lost.

Newbie: There isn't a simple definition. Your post above seemed to assume that all users either wouldn't understand logs or would understand everything about them.

WIGO: We need wigo links! They aren't cluttered! Especially if they were above "toolbox". <font=""; face="Comic Sans MS">Jellyfish!^{That isn't science, that's Pac-Man!} 17:22, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

WIGO: see main page. If newbie doesn't have a simple definition, perhaps you could use a phrase that means what you mean when you type it? ħuman 17:29, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

I don't mean anything by it, I refer only to the word itself.

What's wrong with useful links? They're helpful and welcoming to semi-new users (who do exist, despite your broad delineation of newbies), and they aren't at all cluttered. <font=""; face="Comic Sans MS">Jellyfish!^{That isn't science, that's Pac-Man!} 17:35, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

That's why I suggest building a page of all the ones we have found ourselves using repetitively. I myself use about 15 - 20 or so, and I am sure they aren't the same as yours. Which of the 30 - 50 are we going to put in the sidebar box? ħuman 17:38, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

The four WIGOs and "all logs". It's not a compendium of useful links (although that might well be a useful different idea). It's just to improve basic access. Like the new intercom link. <font=""; face="Comic Sans MS">Jellyfish!^{That isn't science, that's Pac-Man!} 17:40, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

What we should do is get Trent to write a "custom side box" extension - starts as one link "my sidebar" or some such, and goes to a page where the user selects from a bunch of choices (like the intercom/lists page), thereafter all those links turn up on every RW they open. ħuman 17:54, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

A few suggestions for the nice tidy uncluttered pin and needle box
(Human and Chaos II -- Human and Chaos go to Paris and fight werewolves)

http://forum.rationalwiki.com/index.php

http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Special:Watchlist

http://rationalwikiwiki.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges

http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Template:Holydaze

http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/RationalWiki_talk:Proposed_Article_of_the_weak

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details/rationalwiki.com?site0=rationalwiki.com&site1=conservapedia.com&y=r&z=3&h=300&w=470&c=1&u%5B%5D=rationalwiki.com&u%5B%5D=conservapedia.com&x=2008-08-08T00%3A31%3A54.000Z&check=www.alexa.com&signature=3JT08UQjHl%2F1%2BaTJCh0S%2B1%2BCM6I%3D&range=6m&size=Medium

http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/RationalWiki:Community_Standards

http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/Special%3ALog&type=block&user=&page=

http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/Special:Ipblocklist

http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/Special:Newimages

http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/Special:Allpages&from=&namespace=0

http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/Special%3AAllpages&from=&namespace=10

http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/Special%3AAllpages&from=&namespace=14

http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/Special%3AAllpages&from=&namespace=4

http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/Special%3AAllpages&from=&namespace=8

http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/Special%3AAllpages&from=&namespace=100

http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/Special%3AAllpages&from=&namespace=106

http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/Special%3AAllpages&from=&namespace=6

There are a few more, but think I just use two or three clicks to get to them out of laziness. Oh, and a few I saved that don't use much anymore. ħuman 17:43, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

I repeat: four WIGOs and "all logs". That goes in the sidebar, this goes in your new box. Different subject. <font=""; face="Comic Sans MS">Jellyfish!^{That isn't science, that's Pac-Man!} 17:45, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

That's your opinion, but you're not backing it up with facts. I want all these to be one click from any RW page, not two clicks away like the logs and WIGO are. ħuman 17:47, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

You do? Why? Do you mean in the sidebar? <font=""; face="Comic Sans MS">Jellyfish!^{That isn't science, that's Pac-Man!} 17:49, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Yes. because I use them all the time - and did even more so when I was a half-noob. Having an insta-link to things like "all categories" is incredibly useful. And, yes, I mean in the sidebar. ħuman 17:53, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

You're being pointy, aren't you.

Anyway, your above post ^{(please can we discuss everything down here? My head is starting to hurt.)} talks about custom sidebars. Fine, but that's not what I meant. The WIGO links would be for new users, not me. <font=""; face="Comic Sans MS">Jellyfish!^{That isn't science, that's Pac-Man!} 18:06, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

The wigo links are already prominently on the main page (usually the second place I go when referred to an unfamiliar wiki), and they all link to each other. Also, they feature prominently in recent changes (and one is all that is needed to find them all). ħuman 18:21, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

That's a point. Do we need the RC link in the sidebar? It can be found from specialpages, after all. Also: Main page, Intercom and Best of RW should probably be dropped. We can make this thing much tidier! <font=""; face="Comic Sans MS">Jellyfish!^{That isn't science, that's Pac-Man!} 18:24, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Now you're being pointy. RC and random are examples of what every wiki should have there. MP is silly, since the logo links to it. Best of is also silly. Intercom is a magic site-wide feature that should be one click away. Anyway - the custom sidebar could start off with several "defaults" like this, that can be unchecked if an editor wants (or rather, doesn't want!) to. ħuman 18:29, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Holy rusted metal! These werewolves sure are fearsome, Human.

Ahem. Anyway, I think WIGO is a site-wide feature that should be one click away. Helpful. Not cluttered. Very small. I can no longer figure out what you're trying to say. <font=""; face="Comic Sans MS">Jellyfish!^{That isn't science, that's Pac-Man!} 18:38, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

I could see one link to the wigo navbar. Anyway, what I am saying is that we 1. build a resource of any links any of us has ever wished were "always one click away" 2. Make Trent convert the list into a way to generate a personalized (per user) sidebar, then 3. implement it using a default subset of the links, one of which would be "customize my sidebar links". 4. .... 5. Profit! ħuman 19:13, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

It's not that I wish they were one click away for me -- it's not for me at all. And there isn't a neat link to every WIGO, it would be better to show a small number of them. Maybe just CP, blogs and world? Stage five sounds good to me, though :)

Are you gonna help me fight these werewolves or what? <font=""; face="Comic Sans MS">Jellyfish!^{That isn't science, that's Pac-Man!} 19:18, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Haha, I wore my silver foil suit of shining armor, so they've been leaving me alone. Just toss them some steaming goat chunks and it will distract them. I was concentrating more on Paris, she's hot. Are you familiar with the wigo nav. template? It's linked from the proposed AotW talk page. All it is is a little row of links to the four WIGOs and the AotW. Anyway, if we build the thing I describe above, we also link to it from things like the welcome and useful links templates, that is, sticking in any new visitor's face so they can utilize it. ħuman 19:29, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Blech. You're welcome to Paris, my fiend.

But a new user is a lurker, not someone who has just signed up. A link in the sidebar is infinitely more valuable than a customisable... thing. <font=""; face="Comic Sans MS">Jellyfish!^{That isn't science, that's Pac-Man!} 19:34, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

The links are on the main page. Also, we don't want a link to a CP-centric thing on every frickin page of the wiki, and the other WIGOs are still being weaned. We're back to "let people make their own bookmarks" - and they will make the ones they want, not what "we" think they want. ħuman 19:43, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

"we don't want a link to a CP-centric thing on every frickin page of the wiki" -- Why not? Is WIGOCP not important?

"and the other WIGOs are still being weaned" -- They're fine. I suspect you wouldn't want to link to them even if they were as robust as WIGOCP.

"and they will make the ones they want, not what "we" think they want" -- What? Don't be silly. The proposed links are fine for navigation. If we're going to assume we don't know helpful links for our own wiki, why don't we do away with the navigation bar altogether? <font=""; face="Comic Sans MS">Jellyfish!^{That isn't science, that's Pac-Man!} 19:51, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

No, WIGOCP is not focal enough. It's a side thing that just happens to be a big first hit draw for people.

They work, but they aren't rich resources yet. We have many better things on the wiki.

You think they are fine, I disagree, and no one else cares. "We don't know" because we don't even agree. I still say the main page is the starting point, and contains a rich set of links to the main aspects of the site. ħuman 20:00, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

(Unindent)
(Human and Chaos III -- Human and Chaos save Christmas!)

WIGOCP: Are you sure? I think it's the closest thing we have to a focus right now. If you want a more "distanced-from-CP" focus, maybe WIGO news might work better? (It did used to be "According to", after all...)

Other WIGOs: Well they'll never take off if we don't actually make an effort to present them to people :P

We don't know: I know you disagree, Human, but I really can't see the harm in a couple of new links. New users aren't on the main page for long, they'll be exploring articles and talk pages. That's the point when the sidebar makes absorbing a new site simpler.

H&CIII: So... uh... you wanna save Christmas maybe? ^_^ <font=""; face="Comic Sans MS">Jellyfish!^{That isn't science, that's Pac-Man!} 20:12, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Oh, is it my turn? Let's worry about the war on Columbus and the war on Thanksgiving before we troll the WoX!!!! Whose side are you on, after all? ħuman 23:05, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

Do I have to read this talk page to understand what it is I am being requested to create? tmtoulouse ^heckle 00:54, 25 August 2008 (EDT)

Probably. See my comments wherever I talk about the customizable sidebar. It's only reading, after all, and you can ignore everything typed by invertebrates. ħuman 01:10, 25 August 2008 (EDT)