Talk:Azov Brigade

Regarding the claim that the wolfsangel and a Black Sun are on the flag, and Azov is therefore neo-Nazi

@2601:281:d580:5c60:c9da:b102:3259:7619 Yes, there is a a wolfangel on the flag, but variants of that symbol date back to medieval Europe (see Wolfsangel), the the symbol is still used in some European flags/coats-of-arms that are not associated with Nazism (Wolfsangel § In heraldry). Regarding the claim that the Black Sun symbol is on the Azov flag, this is false. The Black Sun symbol, created by Heinrich Himmler (Black Sun), is a specific variant of the Sonnenrad symbols. The Sonnenrad symbols are much older and not necessarily associated with Nazism. The Sonnenrad on the Azov flag is not the Black Sun, but a different Sonnenrad symbol.

See for example, the coat of arms for Mommenheim, Germany, which has both a wolfsangel and a Sonnenrad (Mommenheim, Germany. Bongolian (talk) 17:47, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

I purpose that the Aryan Nations, the Patriot of Ukraine, and Social-National Assembly are ALSO just really into german history for non-neo nazi reasons as well correct? Also it's a wolfsangel on a black sun background, they could not be less subtle even if they tried. ^{— Unsigned, by: 2601:281:d580:5c60:c9da:b102:3259:7619 / talk}

Symbols are not everything. We acknowledged on the page that some of the founding members were neo-Nazis. The reality though is that it's not currently a neo-Nazi organization, at least according to a consensus of Ukrainian Jews ("Not everyone was so upset, however, with the Vaad of Ukraine, a Jewish communal body comprising a number of different organizations and known for its nationalist stance on many issues, coming out in favor of the move [for international funding of Azov].").[1] Bongolian (talk) 18:01, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Yet Famed nazi hunter Eframin Zuroff said and I quote "It's not Russian propaganda, far from it. These people are neo-Nazis. There is an element of the ultra-right in Ukraine and it's absurd to ignore it."[2] so I heavily doubt that they 'abandoned' neo-nazism. 2601:281:d580:5c60:c9da:b102:3259:7619 / talk

And yet there are Jews, including an Israeli, who are members of Azov.[3] So, if you're going to paint the entire Azov with the same brush, it amounts to the schizofascism that Russia has engaged in. Bongolian (talk) 18:20, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Just to make it clear I denounce Russia's invasion of ukraine and the Wagner Group. HOWEVER Azov are neo-nazis, blatantly so regardless of what the group says to whitewash themselves. ^{— Unsigned, by: 2601:281:D580:5C60:C9DA:B102:3259:7619 / talk}

The Azov battalion had ROOTS in neo-nazi leadership, but those members were weeded out after they were integrated into the national guard. Azov in the present day exists as nothing but a red herring for Russian propaganda. ---Ozzyboo (talk) 16:31, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

If the Aryan brotherhood said that they got rid of the neo-nazi elements and that they are totally different now, would you believe them? ^{— Unsigned, by: 2601:281:d580:5c60:b887:5978:f40f:aa7 / talk}

Also them being allies with the atomwaffen division really makes it seem to me that they are neo-nazis. ^{— Unsigned, by: 2601:281:d580:5c60:21fc:dddd:ea97:fc29 / talk}

So please, for the love of god, stop white washing them. ^{— Unsigned, by: 2601:281:D580:5C60:B92A:2EC:6FA8:158E / talk}

Please stop whitewashing The Azov Battalion.

I want you to come up with at least one good reason as to why the guys allied with the Atomwaffen division (https://www.hilltimes.com/story/2022/03/02/we-need-to-talk-about-azov/270305/ https://www.thecipherbrief.com/column_article/examining-atomwaffen-divisions-transnational-linkages https://eeradicalization.com/ukraine-could-become-a-training-ground-for-neo-nazi-groups/), are at the very least not neo nazis. Because it fucking seems like they are. ^{— Unsigned, by: 2601:281:D880:DED0:24F2:BAE9:7FA2:1762 / talk / contribs}

The page has the Nazism navbar right on the top. Also, while Azov is a Neo-Nazi organization, it wasn’t indicative of Ukraine deserving to be invaded, which is what the page focuses on. But I admit, I’ll need to look deeper at this when I’m not at work. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 22:58, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

While The fuhrer of Russia reasoning does not justify his idiotic invasion, I don't think we should get down on our knees and begin sucking the cock of Azov by claiming that they became anti-fascist when we were not looking or something. ^{— Unsigned, by: 2601:281:D880:DED0:24F2:BAE9:7FA2:1762 / talk / contribs}

I stopped just short of writing in the "Defense of Mariupol" section that Azov had practically been obliterated and recreated elsewhere. Seriously, it's not unthinkable that we're looking at a transformed group versus its origins. Anyhow though, I have to wonder what their relationship to Atomwaffen, RAM, et al. is. These articles just vaguely allude to some links they have to each other. One does mention the prospect of Ukraine becoming a training ground for extremist foreign volunteers. That is nothing new. The Syrian Civil War and hell even the Spanish Civil War saw much the same. A combination of those foreign volunteers' zeal and desperation for manpower.

But there have been Jews among Azov's ranks (Zelensky alleges a few dozen fought at Mariupol though this is questioned). That, their apparent LGBT-tolerant status, and their other links to Jewish political figures (Zelensky, Bibi, Kolomoyskyi), refutation by the ADL, has been the crux of current neo-Nazi opposition to Azov that I have observed. Though as the ADL also noted, some other Western neo-Nazis do remain in support of Azov. Chillpilled (talk) 23:34, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

I was listening to a podcast where an Azov Member was shown the screeds of an Atomwaffen Telegram channel and was like "who the fuck are these freaks"? Carthage (talk) 23:28, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

I doubt the fact that this is a completely new Azov with no relation other than the name, and wars like this don't tend to create less ultranationalists and neo nazis, but instead more of them.

^{— Unsigned, by: 2601:281:D880:DED0:24F2:BAE9:7FA2:1762 / talk / contribs}

I'm not certain how you think we're white-washing or misrepresenting them in the current article. By mentioning that they may have fascists and anti-fascists in the same group, at least as alleged by Biletskiy? This doesn't seem suspect, for a variety of reasons but for one: they would likely want to take anyone willing to join. I figured it was why they had neo-Nazis in the first place. Based on some sources I'd been reading, if anything the current article may be too unkind to efforts to denazify the brigade from the inside. One potential counter-source to that idea, however would be this Atlantic Council article by a Bellingcat writer. All these conflicting sources just make my head spin. Chillpilled (talk) 00:29, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I think Biletskiy may be lying about the fact that it has anti fascists. Given who he is and the political party he leads.^{— Unsigned, by: 2601:281:D880:DED0:24F2:BAE9:7FA2:1762 / talk / contribs}