Talk:Blackface

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John Wayne's unfortunate turn as genghis

Unfortunate not just for the yellowface, but for the fact that most of the cast and crew were effectively killed by nuclear fall out. The perils of filming downwind from an atomic test site. Not relevant to article I know, just ghoulishly interesting. AMassiveGay (talk) 00:18, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

expand?

There doesn't appear to much here beyond some examples of blackface and yellowface. Would it perhaps better expanding into more expansive look at racism within Hollywood? The use of blackface really only touches the surface. AMassiveGay (talk) 01:02, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Zwarte piet (black pete)

just to Clarify some inconsistencies; around the dutch figure of Zwarte Piet;

• first and foremost; Zwarte piet is NOT dressed in a ministrel outfit, nor is Pete intended as a caricature of Black people.

• moreof Zwarte Piet is comparable to the iranian figure of Hajji Firuz

• as well as several likewise figures that are part of Pan-european folklore,

• the whole "controversy" is not all that big in the netherlands itself, seeing its largely a children's feast.

• most importantly SinterKlaas (and this cannot be reiterated enough) is NOT the same as Santa Claus, and NOT a dutch X-mas tradition _AT ALL_ (seeing how we still celebrate X-mas, whereas nicholas is typically a holiday for the Kids

• see also Companions of Saint Nicholas on wikipedia
• and a generalized and more indeph history of pete *here*

- Claudi

I'm Belgian so I'm well familiar with Black Pete. Saint Nicholas is my favorite holiday of the year, always has been.

Black Pete, according to tradition, is black because he goes through the chimney. But this doesn't explain the very racist elements of the character. He has sterotypical big red lips, curly dark hark and a slave's earring. The chimney thing is actually a retcon that comes from an episode of the widely popular "Dag Sinterklaas" show. So yes, it's perfectly rational to consider him a racist stereotype, simply because he is one.

The easiest and most lore-friendly way to clean him up is to remove the lips, earring and hair, to focus entirely on the "charcoal Pete" character as has been suggested recently. Secondly, it's important to recognize he's a friend of Saint Nickolas, not the manservant (knecht) as he's traditionally called.

I absolutely love the Saint Nicholas holiday, and it would only become better when it becomes less racist.62.159.14.27 (talk) 11:07, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Is the act itself actually racist?

If a white man putting on black makeup to play a black man is automatically racist, then would that make a male Monty Python actor putting on a dress to play a woman automatically sexist?

There's a big difference between being racist and simply being racial.

Sure blackface was often used to make fun of black people, but big noses are often used to make fun of Jewish people; does that make any character with a big nose automatically anti-Semitic?Skadooshbag (talk) 22:36, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

It's not automatically racist (Robert Downey Jr in blackface in Tropic Thunder is making a satirical point, and it's probably acceptable in an Al Jolson biopic, or to mock a white person who spends too long on a sunbed). But if someone is just doing it to get a laugh, then you need to interrogate more deeply why they're doing it and why people are laughing and what effect it has on onlookers, so you can judge if it's racist - and in that case it's easier just to avoid blackface unless there's a strong reason for it.

As for whether it's sexist for a man to wear a joke and get laughs, sometimes it can be. But while blackface is one type of white people dressing up, there are many different contexts for men to wear dresses. There are people who'd say it's transphobic and hence objectionable to do it for a laugh.[1] And there's a whole big debate about whether drag queens are sexist or misogynistic.[2] And if we went back to the situation c. 1600 where there were no female actors just men in dresses, then most people would say it was sexist. (Bonus question: was it sexist for Monty Python not to employ any women except big busted sex objects?) But because the relationship of men and women is different to that of blacks and whites you can't directly carry it across - indeed men wearing women's clothing are commonly beaten up as gay or transsexual while white people dressed as blacks are not, so if you see what looks like a man in a dress, you certainly can't assume it's being mocking or sexist. (Gay men don't usually wear women's clothing of course, but that doesn't stop homophobic attacks.) --Gospatric (talk) 15:22, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

Satirical point being made (out of sync) here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igYL5w0ZVc8 --Scherben (talk) 22:21, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Thaddeus Russel

I have a question concerning Russel. He's quoted as "One historian" but by his current trackrecord he is more warranted of a Rationalwiki page of his own.

That might be the reason why he was used for the quote, idk.

- Neonazi WW2 History revisionism with Curtis Yarvin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egkCCR25yp4&ab_channel=UnregisteredPodcast

His Twitter is just a delight any time of the year

- "The Declaration of Independence provided—and was used as—the justification for every imperial war of the United States."
https://twitter.com/ThaddeusRussell/status/1411742715499270147

Reactionary trope that enlightenment universalism causes imperialism. I think Carl Schmitt used that one as well.

- Busta Rhymes antimask stuff.

- Just recently came off of an age of consent spree - even though he is somewhere along a conservative line and in disagreement with libertarians.

Naming Russel requires more context, in my opinion.

Helpdesk (talk) 18:18, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

I think what I added should help as a start, but feel free to add/edit if there's a better way to word things that I'm not thinking of at the moment. ℕoir LeSable (talk) 18:26, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Reason for rollback

-This article pertains to racialism as blackface is an extremely racist portrayal of Black people by whites. Such acts stem from racialist beliefs.

-The editor stated, "Blackface while racist doesn’t have anything to do with biological races in itself." This is a racist statement in itself because race is not biological.--April ^Chat? 00:44, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

I don’t believe that race is biological I’m just saying racialism is about race being biological and blackface in itself is not about biological races while it is very racist52.204.153.6 (talk) 01:03, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the category should go, but I think the navbar should stay since it now includes race in general in its heading. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 01:23, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

fair way to put it 15.181.16.181 (talk) 01:29, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

I will settle with that, despite my objections.-April ^Chat? 02:17, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

@52.204.153.6 I understand what you were trying to say now. My apologies.-April ^Chat? 02:21, 18 May 2022 (UTC)