Talk:Erwin Rommel

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Compromise

I do see a reason to keep atleast a brief biography of Rommel and some other prominent Nazis, and I can also see the argument to not waste site resources on an article about Rommel. As a compromise, how about an article broadly about the 20 July Plot and another about the conspirators of the plot, and include in it small biographies of some of the prominent members such as Rommel, Schacht, etc, who were often high ranked members of the German military and political element. Would that make everyone happy?--Logic and Empricism (talk) 03:49, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Eva Braun

I take that nobody will object to my Eva Braun article?--Weirdstuff (talk) 09:43, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

You write it, I'll object to it. I can see a slight RW-ish angle to Rommel (the only question being, is there enough to justify an article); I see none re Eva Braun. What's your proposal? Sophie^Wilder 09:50, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

I see. Evidently if forgot to enter my sarcasm start and stop tags. If Rommel why not Braun was my point but I guess that I should have added a smiley. :-) --Weirdstuff (talk) 10:01, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Ah, i get you. The trouble with sarcasm is that it often relies on tone of voice. Sorry about that. Sophie^Wilder 10:25, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

too positive

The portrayal of Rommel (who was a moderately competent general all right, but don't forget that he was also in charge of the German defenses on D-Day) in this article overall pretty much follows the German right wing myth. Mostly spread "thanks" to him dying before the war ended and due to his son being a reasonable competent local politician for ages (mayors in Germany hardly lose elections and there are no meaningful challengers from within the party unless major things happen). The question whether his unit was involved in war-crimes is quite controversial (though consensus tilts towards yes), but it has to be remembered that most of the war crimes happened on the Eastern Front and the whole point of the Rommel myth during the Nazi-time was to provide a distraction from the Eastern Front (on which the Nazis were getting clobbered by 1943). Anyway, overall we could surely find more dirt on the guy, as there is plenty of it Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 23:57, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree. Rommel was a Holocaust Perpetrator, only an okay general, dedicated Nazi, war criminal, and criminal against humanity https://old.reddit.com/r/ShitWehraboosSay/comments/p1kstl/clean_rommel/h8e2ui5/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rommel_myth --Jakester499 (talk) 01:46, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

If you think this is bad, try Desmond Young's 1950 biography of Rommel, which paints the guy in such glowing colours that you'd think he was really on the Allied side all along and the “Heil Hitler” stuff was just a ghastly misunderstanding. Mr Larrington (talk) 17:38, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Mr Larrington, we need to fix this article. I’ll post the Rommel copypasta at the saloon, my thinking is too grammatically incorrect and clustered to write it. I’ll create a sandbox and we can edit it. --Jakester499 (talk) 21:48, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Right of Reason?

Would it we be correct to put him in that category?S.H. DeLong (talk) 02:41, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't say so, mainly because Rommel did very little to oppose Hitler until things began to go south in WWII.

Also, as with the earlier anti-Nazi/-Hitler conspiracies in the German armed forces (going back to the 1930s), their main gripe was that they saw Hitler and the Nazis as a threat to the status and position of the armed forces as a power player in German politics and society, not that they minded the Nazis' anti-democratic and fanatic ideology.

Contrast, for instance, with such pre-Pinochet Chilean high-ranking officers as René Schneider or Carlos Prats who were both constitutionalists who opposed the idea of a coup against a democratically elected government and who both paid with their lives for that decision. ScepticWombat (talk) 05:50, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Rommel is getting too much good press. Mostly because one of his sons was a rather important politician (mayor of Stuttgart for ages); because the Nazi propaganda exaggerated his military skills and because he conveniently died in a way that makes his "opposition" to the regime appear greater thaen it really was. Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 12:29, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Rommel Copypasta

https://old.reddit.com/r/ShitWehraboosSay/comments/p1kstl/clean_rommel/h8e2ui5/ “ Gentlemen, I bring the Rommel Copypaste: Erwin Rommel is one of the most misrepresented figures in history. Frequently used as the "good" German general, this narrative is a distortion of history that ignores among others, the treatment of Jews in North Africa as well as Rommel's role in Italy. Rommel was an ardent Nazi. But even before that he was known as an enemy of democracy and the republican order. In 1920 he was supportive of the Kapp Putsch, an attempt by extreme right-wing German Freikorps to overthrow the Republic and establish an extreme right-wing dictatorship in Germany. Commanding a security battalion of the Reichswehr in the town of Schwäbisch Gmund, he violated the oath he had sworn only recently to the Republic by ordering his troops to violently suppress a demonstration staged by workers in opposition to the attempted Kapp Putsch. While it didn't come so far that his troops fired live ammunition on the demonstration, they brutally beat and used a fire hose against a peaceful demonstration against an attempt to violently overthrow democratic order. [Haus der Geschichte Baden-Württemberg (Hg.): Mythos Rommel. Katalog zur Sonderausstellung 18. Dezember 2008 bis 30. August 2009, Stuttgart 2009, p. 35.] Later after the take over of power by the Nazis, he developed strong political sympathies and a close working relationship with Hitler, coming so far as to become Hitler's favorite general. It is unsurprising that Goebbels wrote in his diary in 1942 that Rommel "is not only politically close to National Socialism, he is a Nationalsocialist." [Elke Fröhlich (ed.): Die Tagebücher des Joseph Goebbels, München u. a. 1987-2001, II. 4, 01.10.1942, p. 38.] Already during his command in France we see several episodes of him committing what classified as a war crime under the Hague Conventions. At some point he ordered civilian houses to be burned in order to use the smoke to advance his troops over the river Maas. This is a case where it could be arguable that it is within the lines of the Hague Conventions since they only forbid the "wanton destruction of an enemy's property, unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war”. Whether this was necessitated by war is arguable but it nonetheless points in a problematic direction. On a second occasion, he ordered his troops to pretend they were surrendering in order to be able to advance closely on French positions and then shoot the French soldiers who had prepared to take them into custody. This is a clear violation of the Hague Rules on what they refer to as "perfidy" and constitutes a war crime. [both of these episodes are relayed in rather glorifying terms in the German version of Irving's Rommel biography, p. 61ff.] Concerning his time in Libya, the research situation is difficult but it is clear that upon entering the town of Benghazi, Wehrmacht soldiers of the Afrika Korps took part in a pogrom against the Jews of Benghazi that left 67 people dead. Similarly, newer research has uncovered that the Wehrmacht sent advisors to the Italians for the deportation of Libyan Jews to Italy as well as for the construction of concentration camps in Libya, the most famous being Jado and Benghazi where over 600 Jews died due to poor conditions. A question that still remains open is what role Rommel played in the execution of over 500 POWs of mostly Austrian and German origin from the British Jewish brigade. While it is true that Rommel did not relay the order from Berlin to execute German and Austrian members of the French Foreign Legion, who had been political opponents of Nazi Germany, when the Germans caught them, the issue of the Jewish POWs and his role in said executions remains shadowy. [Wolfgang Proske: „Ich bin nicht beteiligt am Attentat“: Erwin Rommel, in: Proske. (ed.): Täter Helfer Trittbrettfahrer. NS-Belastete von der Ostalb, Münster/Ulm 2010, S. 207ff.; Maurice M. Roumani,: The Jews of Libya. Coexistence, Persecution, Resettlement. Brighton/Portland (UK) 2009, p. 34-35]. In Tunisia, the situation is more clear. Here Rommel collaborated closely with the Einsatzgruppe North Africa under Walter Rauff of gas van fame. Rommel worked closely with Rauff in using Jewish forced laborers to build fortifications for the German army and in constructing over 30 concentration camps in Tunisia where more than 2500 Jews perished during the German presence there. Furthermore on July 20, 1942 Rommel issued instructions to Rauff and his Einsatzgruppe that once the Germans had conquered Palestine, it would be the Einsatzgruppe's task to kill the Jews of Palestine. [Klaus-Michael Mallmann and Martin Cüppers: "Beseitigung der jüdisch-nationalen Heimstätte in Palästina." Das Einsatzkommando bei der Panzerarmee Afrika 1942. In: Jürgen Matthäus und Klaus-Michael Mallmann (ed.): Deutsche, Juden, Völkermord. Der Holocaust als Geschichte und Gegenwart, Darmstadt 2006, p. 153–176] Also, he allowed a Judenrat to be established in Tunis and watched on when Wehrmacht soldiers plundered Jewish Ghettos in towns like Tunis and Susse. [Klaus-Michael Mallmann and Martin Cüppers: Halbmond und Hakenkreuz. Das Dritte Reich, die Araber und Palästina, Darmstadt 2007, p. 137f; published in English as "Nazi Palestine: The Plans for the Extermination of the Jews of Palestine", New York 2009]. In 1943 he was responsible for preparing the German measures in Italy after Mussolini had been deposed following the Allied landing in Italy. There Rommel issued several orders on which the brutality with which the Italian soldiers captured by the Germans were treated. On September 23 after Mussolini had been deposed and Badoglio had negotiated an Italian armistice with the Allies, Rommel issued an order to his troops stating: Sentimentality concerning the Badoglio following gangs [Banden, Nazi German dictum for Partisans and other irregular resistance indicating criminality] in the uniforms of the former ally is misplaced. Whoever fights against the German soldier has lost any right to be treated well and shall experience toughness reserved for the rabble which betrays friends. Every member of the German troop has to adopt this stance. This order was the basis for several brutal acts in disarming the members of the Italian army captured by the Germans. Summary executions and hangings were common in order to make an example and force their fellow soldiers to give up their weapons willingly. This too was a clear war crime. Furthermore, the disarmed Italian soldiers were not be treated as POWs. They received a special status that was called "Military Interned" which indicated worse treatment. [The Orders can be found in the German Bundesarchiv, Militärarchiv Freiburg, RM 7/1333 und RH 27-24/26. They are partially printed in Jürgen Förster: Wehrmacht, Krieg und Holocaust. In: Militärgeschichtliches Forschungsamt (ed.): Die Wehrmacht – Mythos und Realität, München 1999, p. 961.]. Now, as for Rommel's involvement in the July 20 plot: While one of Rommel's deputies, Hans Speidel, who had been involved in the July 20 plot, wrote after the war that Rommel was a member of the resistance, there is no evidence that this is accurate. While there is some indication that Rommel would have supported a separate peace with the Western allies in order to continue fighting the Soviet Union, it doesn't go much further than that. From Maurice Remy in his book Mythos Rommel to David Fraser in his biography of Rommel, there is strong consensus that Rommel was not involved in the plot and didn't know about it beforehand. One of the strongest indications of this is a letter to his wife that he wrote that he was shocked by the attempt on Hitler's life and that he thanked God that it didn't succeed. So, in conclusion, while there is one instance in which he did not relay an order to kill German members of the French Foreign Legion, there is overwhelming evidence that Rommel was involved in and responsible for war crimes, while there is a lack of evidence for his participation in the resistance. The idea that Rommel was a "good German" is a myth and part of the larger overall Clean Wehrmacht myth that is intended to exonerate the members of the German armed forces of their atrocities and crimes.” -/u/nikos600781 Rommel was a Holocaust perpetrator and dedicated Nazi, no better than any other “Clean” Wehrmacht field marshal at the time. This article promotes what Wikipedia calls the Rommel myth, which only highlights Rommel as Nazi propaganda. This article needs to majorly reformed to reflect this.Jakester499 (talk) 10:18, 1 April 2022 (UTC)