Talk:Ethnic cleansing

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Benny Morris

Chrisamiss, can you provide an internet version or whatever of the Benny Morris source? I can't verify that's what he actually said, especially given what I know about Benny Morris. CorruptUser (talk) 06:10, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

* For the Zionist plan of transfer, here's a quote from Righteous Victims: "[f]or many Zionists, beginning with Herzl, the only realistic solution lay in transfer. From 1880 to 1920, some entertained the prospect of Jews and Arabs coexisting in peace. But increasingly after 1920, and more emphatically after 1929, for the vast majority a denouement of conflict appeared inescapable. Following the outbreak of 1936, no main- stream leader was able to conceive of future coexistence and peace without a clear physical separation between the two peoples—achievable only by way of transfer and expulsion" (139)

For how Palestinians were driven out in 1947-1949, I am quoting from Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, here:

* November 1947 - June 1948, Morris writes, “Jewish attack directly and indirectly triggered most of the Arab exodus.”

* June 1948 - 1949, Morris writes, “from July onwards, there was a growing readiness in the IDF units to expel.... Ben-Gurion clearly wanted as few Arabs as possible to remain in the Jewish State. He hoped to see them flee. He said as much to his colleagues and aides in meetings in August, September and October.... [W]hile there was no ‘expulsion policy,’ the July and October offensives were characterised by far more expulsions and, indeed, brutality towards Arab civilians than the first half of the war.”

* Overall, Morris writes: “In general, in most cases the final and decisive precipitant to flight was Haganah, IZL, LHI or IDF attack or the inhabitants’ fear of such attack.”

Cited pages above for Refugee Problem are 287, 292-3, and 294.

FYI, Benny Morris admitted an ethnic cleansing occurred, but he justified it in an infamous 2004 interview with Ari Shavit. He said, "[t]here are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide — the annihilation of your people — I prefer ethnic cleansing". In addition, he said of Ben-Gurion: "In the end, he faltered... If he had carried out a full expulsion — rather than a partial one — he would have stabilized the State of Israel for generations." Source: http://www.webcitation.org/5pvy2Rvfw ChrisAmiss (talk)

Sort of relevant Reddit comment

“”Imagine being so triggered by other ethnic groups existing, you try to turn the entire country into a safe space.

—/r/enoughtrumpspam automod

Definition of Genocide

The article gives an incorrect definition of genocide, instead citing its most common popular meaning. The official definition, according to the UN, includes what they define as just being ethnic cleansing. There's also cultural genocide, which includes attempting to wipe out a people by, say, abducting their children and educating them elsewhere (See: Australia and aborigines, American countries and the native americans), or other attempts to wipe out their language and unique cultural heritage. Deportation from the homeland can also be used for cultural genocide.

Genocide is defined in Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

(1948) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

Source Erik Tiber (talk) 06:37, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Inverse stopped clock

At its most basic, genocide is when the goal is to kill the target group(s), whereas ethnic cleansing is when the goal is to kick them out of your land, often violently and murderously.

Genocide historian Gregory Stanton unfortunately believes the term is a euphemism for genocide denial.[2]

I'm not sure this is an inverse stopped clock. I've seen the reasoning explained for this by at least one other person trained in genocide studies (the host of the podcast Lions Led By Donkeys Joe Kassabian is academically trained in the subject) is that the the term was created because genocide is legally actionable, whereas "ethnic cleansing" isn't. It's literally a euphemism by this logic. Carthage (talk) 04:46, 25 November 2024 (UTC)