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Talk:Primary election/Archive1
Delete[edit]
keep - Background information about politics. Since discussions of politics will at least sometimes be on-mission (and even when they aren't, many editors will be pleased to engage in them anyway), I think it isn't harmful to have some such articles. Too much politics fluff should be avoided, e.g. articles on every minor politican or candidate or law or so on. (This isn't Ballotpedia or 538.com or whatnot). But, broad/high-level info about politics like this should be fine. Although this article is very US-centric; we have a 'caucus' in Australia too, but it means something very different - our Labor party uses it to mean a meeting of all MPs in that party in a given legislature (state or federal). Other parties have the same idea, but e.g. the Liberals or Nationals they don't have the same term (they just call it the 'party room'); not sure what minor parties do. I'm sure the same concept exists in the US too (i.e. meetings of all Congressional Democrats or all Congressional Republicans, or equivalent for state legislatures), although I guess they must have their own term for it again. --(((Zack Martin)))™ 09:09, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
- Keep as well. Deserves some expansion. Blue (is useful) 16:58, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
Open primary shenanigans[edit]
I'm curious if anyone can give an example of when opposition supporters have gamed an open primary, or tried to. It would be interesting and possibly amusing (depending on circumstances). Annquin (talk) 23:10, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- It is very difficult to prove empirically and does require an amount of organization that voters don't typically have. According to Wikipedia, the only example that shows that it happened was in the 2002 California Republican Gubernatorial Primary (please don't make me say that a lot) where Democrats purposefully cross-voted in the Republican primary to put the more trouble-ridden candidate on top for the general election, and said candidate then lost. There's not a load of clear proof for this from a quick Google search, though. There's more examples of chicanery in other countries that have more multi-party systems, but nothing quite as comparable. Hentropy (talk) 23:39, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- That's the definition and meaning of Shenanigans - something very difficult to prove. nobsDump Trump 21:21, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
- Here's the most recent Nevada caucus; here's the Ohio Kasich machine attempting to outlaw it last month; Limbaugh for Hillary; Democrats for Santorum;current RNC Chairman in Scott Walker's Recall primary; Arizona 6 days ago. There's much more. It should be noted, these Shenanigans are much more prevalent and routine in city council, State rep, or US Congress and such.nobsLewinsky 2020 02:40, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- There's no doubt that there are many who have posed the theory and those who have tried to organize to do it. However, there is no proof that these tactics have actually gotten a major following, or have worked in any way. A bunch of anecdotal evidence from bloggers aren't exactly compelling evidence. It wouldn't be surprising if they did have some kind of impact on these elections, but proving it is the tough part. Hentropy (talk) 03:02, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- MS and MN against it; MD, Philly & MI for it. nobsLewinsky 2020
- I am curious how it would affect Maryland, for example, since only unaffiliated (independent) voters are allowed to vote in any party. I am also curious if the primary elections were modified, like they are in Nebraska, where they don't list a candidate's party affiliation.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 03:13, 30 March 2016 (UTC) 03:13, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Now you know where candidates like Todd Akin,Sharron Angle, Christine O'Donnell, George McGovern, Michael Dukakis, or Donald Trump come from. None of these candidates can be considered representative of the mainstream of their parties. nobsLewinsky 2020 03:27, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Dukakis isn't "mainstream"? Also, Todd Akin, Sharron Angle, the Donald were propped up by the Tea Party while McGovern was promoted by the anti-war left.--Owlman (talk) (maijl) 03:31, 30 March 2016 (UTC) 03:31, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Dukakis yes. Dukakis opposed the MX missile for example, which was began by Jimmy Carter and a majority Democratic Congress. Why a Governor who would never voted on it would take such a position like that is ludicrous. He injected himself on the minority side of an internal Democratic squabble between social spenders and defence spenders. He was willing to trade national security for food stamps.nobsLewinsky 2020 17:03, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Trump is an interesting case now; there's no doubt he has siphoned off as much as 20% of traditional Democrats to vote in Republican primaries. However the intent of Democratic voters supporting Trump isn't to disrupt the GOP, although it is having that effect. Trump Democrats vote for him cause they genuinely like his message. nobsLewinsky 2020 03:50, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- As someone who actually lives in Delaware, and thus had to sit through the O'Donnell sideshow in a way that actually affected me, I can tell you that O'Donnell was not the result of chicanery. Not only do we have completely closed primaries, but her opponent, Mike Castle, was far too moderate for today's (and 2010's) Republican party. I could write a book on how the fucking of a popular politician like Castle is the perfect illustration of the broken primary and political system, but I digress. Hentropy (talk) 03:56, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- According to the results of that election she only lost by 17% which is pretty close for a traditionally blue state.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 04:01, 30 March 2016 (UTC) 04:01, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- So O'Donnell had a primary opponent in a closed primary State? The question isn't being a moderate, it's which candidate was saner, Castle or O'Donnell. But the question of crossover registration goes one step beyond the problem of crossovers in an open primary right now. nobsLewinsky 2020 04:30, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- I wouldn't necessarily call Delaware a solid blue state, while we have been reliable in Presidential elections we do have a proportionally large rural area and voters who became the Delaware GOP's main driver, where it used to be industrial urban Rockefeller Republicans that drove things. There was no chicanery, just a realignment. Chris Coons, the Democratic oppoonent (and current Senator), was also a neophyte without a huge resume, originally meant to be a sacrificial lamb against Castle with more serious Democrats shying away from it. But yes, a third of Delawareans voting for O'Donnell was not the most encouraging thing in the world. Hentropy (talk) 04:42, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah I know Delaware has very low income taxes, but when you see your state acting like they are from the South by passing discriminatory bills against the LGBT community, women's abortion rights, public unions, and voting rights any state seems moderate.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 04:47, 30 March 2016 (UTC) 04:47, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- I wouldn't necessarily call Delaware a solid blue state, while we have been reliable in Presidential elections we do have a proportionally large rural area and voters who became the Delaware GOP's main driver, where it used to be industrial urban Rockefeller Republicans that drove things. There was no chicanery, just a realignment. Chris Coons, the Democratic oppoonent (and current Senator), was also a neophyte without a huge resume, originally meant to be a sacrificial lamb against Castle with more serious Democrats shying away from it. But yes, a third of Delawareans voting for O'Donnell was not the most encouraging thing in the world. Hentropy (talk) 04:42, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- So O'Donnell had a primary opponent in a closed primary State? The question isn't being a moderate, it's which candidate was saner, Castle or O'Donnell. But the question of crossover registration goes one step beyond the problem of crossovers in an open primary right now. nobsLewinsky 2020 04:30, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- According to the results of that election she only lost by 17% which is pretty close for a traditionally blue state.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 04:01, 30 March 2016 (UTC) 04:01, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- As someone who actually lives in Delaware, and thus had to sit through the O'Donnell sideshow in a way that actually affected me, I can tell you that O'Donnell was not the result of chicanery. Not only do we have completely closed primaries, but her opponent, Mike Castle, was far too moderate for today's (and 2010's) Republican party. I could write a book on how the fucking of a popular politician like Castle is the perfect illustration of the broken primary and political system, but I digress. Hentropy (talk) 03:56, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Dukakis isn't "mainstream"? Also, Todd Akin, Sharron Angle, the Donald were propped up by the Tea Party while McGovern was promoted by the anti-war left.--Owlman (talk) (maijl) 03:31, 30 March 2016 (UTC) 03:31, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Now you know where candidates like Todd Akin,Sharron Angle, Christine O'Donnell, George McGovern, Michael Dukakis, or Donald Trump come from. None of these candidates can be considered representative of the mainstream of their parties. nobsLewinsky 2020 03:27, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- I am curious how it would affect Maryland, for example, since only unaffiliated (independent) voters are allowed to vote in any party. I am also curious if the primary elections were modified, like they are in Nebraska, where they don't list a candidate's party affiliation.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 03:13, 30 March 2016 (UTC) 03:13, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- MS and MN against it; MD, Philly & MI for it. nobsLewinsky 2020
- There's no doubt that there are many who have posed the theory and those who have tried to organize to do it. However, there is no proof that these tactics have actually gotten a major following, or have worked in any way. A bunch of anecdotal evidence from bloggers aren't exactly compelling evidence. It wouldn't be surprising if they did have some kind of impact on these elections, but proving it is the tough part. Hentropy (talk) 03:02, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
yes yes yes. Mike Castle, excellent illustration. Although this example points to crossover registration in a closed primary. Mike Castle won State-wide Election in no less than 12 elections by my count. How does a popular incumbent, a known quantity to the voters, loose to an unknown lunatic? Democrats in such heavy Democratic state tried everything possible and imaginable 12 times to defeat him. What is left other than crossover registration, a low-turnout Special Election with an unknown challenger presents the perfect opportunity. My bet is, he never had an inter-party primary challenger in the previous 12 elections. nobsLewinsky 2020 04:51, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well a pro-business Democrat lost in my state to a crazed Christian Right, Tea Partier and with his current financial backing I am not sure he could win be beat the next time. Max Baucas also won in Kentucky on the platform to pull out of Obamacare even though Kentuckians liked Medicaid expansion.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 05:00, 30 March 2016 (UTC) 05:00, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- We are generally taxophobic here in general, it is true, though relying on corporate taxes and casino excise taxes has caught up with us but that's a blah blah different thing. Our Democratic legislature also recently voted down a repeal of the death penalty, which tells you something about how liberal our Democrats tend to be here. O'Donnell wasn't completely unknown to the GOP at least, she herself was a doomed candidate for Senate against Biden in 2008. During that doomed run, however, she was able to position herself as a cultural conservative, essentially the Delawarean Sarah Palin. Being a woman may have given her a bit of a boost with some audiences as well, I suppose. The most obvious explanation as to why Castle did not win the primary- despite being quite well-liked and having the official support of the party- is because Castle voters assumed he was a shoe-in and stayed home instead of voting, where O'Donnell supporters were out in full force. The fact that virtually no one does polls for a race like that and less people report on it also played a factor, Castle fans had no reason to believe it would go any other way. Hentropy (talk) 05:06, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well luckily the national Dems still concentrate on your state, but my state, Indiana, is probably doomed since Gregg is just not going to get the backing he needs. I mean I thought Mitch Daniels was bad, but Pence is an insufferable asshole and yet my state's gubernatorial has the most out of state money coming in in order to determine this election.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 05:14, 30 March 2016 (UTC) 05:14, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'll buy all that. So of Delawares 3 federal State-wide offices - Chafee, Biden, and Castle - Biden probably never had a primary challenger beyond his first term. Delawarians regularly split their tickets. Being that Biden never had a primary challenger, many Democrats would have no reason to hold Democratic party registration for years at a time. nobsLewinsky 2020 05:28, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well like I said my state has an open primary, but Mike Pence won against a pro-business Dem. I have my doubts that Mike Pence because the Dems were playing 3D chest.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 05:35, 30 March 2016 (UTC) 05:35, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Indiana has not voted yet, has it?nobsLewinsky 2020 05:38, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well like I said my state has an open primary, but Mike Pence won against a pro-business Dem. I have my doubts that Mike Pence because the Dems were playing 3D chest.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 05:35, 30 March 2016 (UTC) 05:35, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'll buy all that. So of Delawares 3 federal State-wide offices - Chafee, Biden, and Castle - Biden probably never had a primary challenger beyond his first term. Delawarians regularly split their tickets. Being that Biden never had a primary challenger, many Democrats would have no reason to hold Democratic party registration for years at a time. nobsLewinsky 2020 05:28, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well luckily the national Dems still concentrate on your state, but my state, Indiana, is probably doomed since Gregg is just not going to get the backing he needs. I mean I thought Mitch Daniels was bad, but Pence is an insufferable asshole and yet my state's gubernatorial has the most out of state money coming in in order to determine this election.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 05:14, 30 March 2016 (UTC) 05:14, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- We are generally taxophobic here in general, it is true, though relying on corporate taxes and casino excise taxes has caught up with us but that's a blah blah different thing. Our Democratic legislature also recently voted down a repeal of the death penalty, which tells you something about how liberal our Democrats tend to be here. O'Donnell wasn't completely unknown to the GOP at least, she herself was a doomed candidate for Senate against Biden in 2008. During that doomed run, however, she was able to position herself as a cultural conservative, essentially the Delawarean Sarah Palin. Being a woman may have given her a bit of a boost with some audiences as well, I suppose. The most obvious explanation as to why Castle did not win the primary- despite being quite well-liked and having the official support of the party- is because Castle voters assumed he was a shoe-in and stayed home instead of voting, where O'Donnell supporters were out in full force. The fact that virtually no one does polls for a race like that and less people report on it also played a factor, Castle fans had no reason to believe it would go any other way. Hentropy (talk) 05:06, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
Back to Mike Castle, a 22 year incumbent. Let me cite the cases of Joe Lieberman & Ted Stevens: these longterm Senate incumbents held office so long and built party machines whose spouses, children, and other relatives all held cross-party registration to help select nobodies to run against them; when they experienced a primary challenger after decades in the Senate, there was no one to support them in the primary cause their machine and General Election supporters were all registered to vote in the opposing primary. nobsDump Trump 21:58, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well Representative Pete Visclosky has held his seat for decades even though Indiana has an open primary.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 22:19, 31 March 2016 (UTC) 22:19, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
Example, Obama organizes primary challenger to Democratic incumbant and wins in a winner-take-all contest with 38%.nobsLewinsky 2020 17:26, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
Left wing people registered Republican, right wing people registered Democrat[edit]
Just off the top of my head, I know of two people who once registered as something which I am quite sure they never really were. Elizabeth Warren used to register Republican and that guy that "challenged" Obama in 2012 on an anti-choice platform registered Democrat just to get into the primary. Given that in any given election both candidates gain about five to ten percentage points of the opposite registered vote, I do think cross party registration is more common than we think. Keeping that in mind, I think there should be a law for all fifty states that makes automatic registration mandatory and does not assign a party, instead offering open primaries for everybody everywhere every time. Back in the days of the Solid South, the Southern Dems had "white only" primaries.... I don't think we should allow similar things today... Pizzameister (talk) 15:32, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Lol, this guy is so outraged over people in his party dropping their affiliation and changing registration he dropped his affiliation and changed registration. On a more serious side, I see how explaining the Open Primary abuses opened the door to explaining the real duplicity in crossover voting. Party registration only matters in Closed Primaries, party registration is meaningless in Open Primaries or General Elections. The Shenanigans occur in crossover registration for a closed primary. nobsDump Trump 21:09, 31 March 2016 (UTC)