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Archaic Admixture[edit]

I often hear racialists use archiac admixture in populations as "proof" of races being heavily different (like Asians and Europeans having 1-4% Neanderthal DNA but Africans having none). The recent discovery of a "ghost" population contributing DNA (about 8%) into the African gene pool has caused some debate as well. Anyone care to elaborate on that? — Unsigned, by: / talk / contribs

Irrational Wiki[edit]

To be rational is to admit those things which we may not me comfortable with. There are many important people who believe that there are substantial genetic differences between populations of our species. Yes, it is true that there are cultural and social boundaries that are constructed, but there are many who believe that race is real. Additionally, there may possibly be differences in intelligence between races. People like Steven Pinker have defended the idea that the certain Jewish populations may be more intelligent than other human populations. This is not racism.

This article should consider both sides more thoroughly and let people decide for themselves. Let us rectify the biases in this article and not embarrass ourselves, for we cannot claim to have neutrality nor reason when sections of this article read like a rant of a mediocre first year university student, especially the introduction. --Thomas Tallis (talk) 06:01, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

At Rationalwiki, we do not have a neutral point of view, we have a scientific point of view. Our Anti-vaccination movement article does not present anti vaxxer arguments as just as truthful as the real scientific consensus. Balance fallacy aka assuming both sides are equally "right". —ClickerClock💾 talk.txt 09:05, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Also the conclusion that "certain Jewish populations may be more intelligent than other human populations" sounds racist to me. Dysklyver (talk) 09:19, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

There is a difference between a white supremest supporting racial theories while providing dubious evidence such as craniometry compared to a prominent Harvard scientist such as Steven Pinker speculating that the average intelligence of Ashkenazi Jews may be higher. That is not to say that Pinker's conclusion was correct, but it is most irrational to characterise this man as racist when you know nothing about the matter. We do not destroy the reputations of serious thinkers merely for discussing matters which me may not find politically correct. There are many people in the skeptic community who support equal rights but also believe race is real such as Richard Dawkins, Jerry Coyne, Sam Harris, and Steven Pinker. Cambridge Geneticist AWF Edwards also thinks race is real.

Nor did I say anything about assuming both sides are correct. I am certainly not suggesting adding superstitions to this article, but serious scientific studies are not the same thing as anti-vaccination articles on cheap Christian websites. --Thomas Tallis (talk) 11:59, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

  • Richard Dawkins explains it much better:

  • As does Jerry Coyne:

  • Steven Pinker's article:

  • Sam Harris article is interesting:

  • If you want scientific journal articles (peer reviewed): — Unsigned, by: Thomas Tallis / talk / contribs

see editorial notes above. "View the archives of this talk page for previous discussions, so not to make a PRATT. You're making a point refuted a thousand times and setting up the same straw man arguments that have been dealt with here countless times. Just go away.MrSheen (talk) 12:55, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Scientific consensus says that race does not exist. Let's both admit that we are not Anthropologists. We do not have sufficient experience nor knowledge concerning race. A neuroscientist specializes in the brain, an evolutionary scientist in evolution, and an astrophysicist in astronomy. IMO scientists should not generally comment on matters outside their specialization. Anthropologists specialize in studying humans and anthropology introduced the concept of race. Since a lot of people are speaking outside their expertise, it's difficult to distinguish between crank ideas and unusual truth; especially for a layperson. —ClickerClock💾 talk.txt 13:01, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Compare the DNA-based maps ("The modern cline concept" and the "A map of Y-chromosome haplogroups") on the page vs. the race-based map ("Johann Blumenbach's 1775 racial typologies") that were only at-bast based on physical/geographical features. More historical maps are available at History of racialism. I think that you would have great difficulty defining "Jew" in a non-religious-based scientific way. Do you mean Ashkenazim, Sephardim or Falasha? The Cohen Modal Haplotype is a genetic indicator but it is neither universal among Jews nor universally absent among non-Jews (see also Ten Lost Tribes). People have been converting to and from Judaism for thousands of years. Bongolian (talk) 16:19, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
The point raised by the OP in this section has not been refuted before at all. There is NO scientific consensus that "race does not exist", and the link to the article posted was a poll taken in which 90% of those sampled were social scientists (cultural and social anthropologists and similar professions). Only 10% were physical anthropologists. Those who have the most knowledge in this area ARE evolutionary biologists, geneticists and biological anthropologists. Only biologists have the proper knowledge and experience to be polled, and they are still very much divided on race/subspecies/populations/demes/ecotypes/lineages/clines - all of these taxonomical groupings are interrelated and often synonymous in most of the academic literature, especially in non-human species. Acceptance of racial groups is actually increasing all over with each new genetic find. To claim that humans have not developed races, as if we are somehow unique from all other primates, and all other mammals, despite periods of 100,000 - 200,000 years of genetic isolation with specific groups admixing with other species, is a level of nonsense only possible in those who are unscientific ideologues, whom most social scientists these days can be described as being. They do not use empirical biological or genetic data, and instead use pedantic wordplay to support their ultra-egalitarian, radical left-wing ideologies.
There are human populations existing today,like the Sentinelese people on North Sentinel Island, who have been FULLY and completely genetically isolated from the rest of humanity for nearly 30,000 YEARS (they are still uncontacted by the outside world, and we have no knowledge about their language). That is more than enough time for subspecies to develop, and subspecies of wolves have developed in less than 5,000 years of divergence for example.
Also, much of the data used in this article is outdated and flawed, and ignores enormous amounts of scientific papers, especially most recent ones, clearly using and defending race as a term for human groups of subspecies and populations. The existence of gene flow in human continental groups has also been limited and only during certain periods and in certain places, but gene flow is not a reason to deny the existence of separate lineages between species, let alone subspecies. Gene flow between lineages does not mean that there is only one lineage within a species. Clinal variation between human groups is also not equally and smoothly gradual between human groups, but is very abrupt in many regions around the world, including between continental groups. There would be no human genetic structure in the way observed if it was a perfect spectrum of gradual clinal variation. There is a very abrupt genetic barrier between sub-Saharan Africa and North Africa, and between sub-Saharan Africa and Eurasia. There is a very abrupt difference between the frequency of Y-chromosome haplogroup D in Asia, with very high frequencies in widely separated groups of Tibetans, Andamanese and the Ainu, but extremely low frequencies in the intermediate populations between those groups, even when neighbouring them.
Finally, the data used in the 2013 study by Templeton has long been refuted in its comparison between the Fst values between Chimpanzee races and human races, because the Chimpanzee genetic data was recent (2011), while the human data from Rosenberg (2002) was extremely limited and outdated, long before the discoveries beginning in 2010 of archaic human DNA in Europeans and Asians from Neanderthals, Denisovans and a third unknown hominin (in Negritos, Andamanese, Papuans and Australian Aboriginese) which is ABSENT in sub-Saharan Africans. The amount of genetic differentiation between human racial groups has thus increased substantially, with groups possessing archaic admixture that is ABSENT from other human racial or ancestral groups. The genetic differences between racial and ethnic groups now varies between 10 - 20%, and this is more than enough to meet subspecies level of differentiation given that th 25% threshold used by Templeton is, as he admits, highly arbitrary and unsupported, especially given that even a 2% difference produces massive phenotypic variation. (talk) 08:40, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
Read this recent study from 2016 on hominin interbreeding in humans, and the role these new findings have had on the understanding of the evolution of the different human races: Hominin interbreeding and the evolution of human variation (2016)
"Geographical variation in degree of interbreeding between H. sapiens and Neanderthals likely contributed to neurological and behavioral differences in modern humans. Similarly, people with Denisovan genetic admixture were better able to dwell in mountainous regions, allowing their genetic legacy to cross the Himalayas and persist in Southeast Asian and Oceanian H. sapiens. In the Sub-Saharan region, unaffected by Denisovan or Neanderthal interbreeding, H. sapiens interbred with H. heidelbergensis, because high humidity militated against fire-making and allowed the survival of these non-fire-making hominins"
Interbreeding and race
"People from East Asian countries have approximately 20 % more Neanderthal DNA than Western Europeans, and these differences in levels of interbreeding with Neanderthals caused certain neurological differences observed today."
"Furthermore, without an archaic Neanderthal ancestry, Sub-Saharan African populations would be more affected by genes linked to aggression or hyperactivity, which are found only in H. sapiens. This finding could help account for the differences in violence or aggression found in the human race today." (talk) 08:53, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
Racial characteristics of human teeth (2017)
"Forensic dentists can determine race within the three major groups: Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid. Additional characteristics of teeth, such as cusps of Carabelli, shovel-shaped incisors, and multicusped premolars, can also assist in the determination of ancestry." (talk) 10:36, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
Genomic analysis of Andamanese provides insights into ancient human migration into Asia and adaptation (2016)
"We show that all Asian and Pacific populations share a single origin and expansion out of Africa, contradicting an earlier proposal of two independent waves of migration" (i.e. all the individuals of this specific population share a common genetic descent, not shared with other human continental/racial groups, thus again meeting subspecies criteria).
"We also show that populations from South and Southeast Asia harbor a small proportion of ancestry from an unknown extinct hominin, and this ancestry is absent from Europeans and East Asians." (i.e. genes ONLY and UNIQUELY found in Andamanese, Negritos, Papuans, etc. - thus, meeting subspecies or racial criteria, not just population/ecotype/deme/ethnic group)
Evolutionary and Medical Consequences of Archaic Introgression into Modern Human Genomes (2018)
"Modern non-African human genomes carry fragments of archaic origin...Genomic studies of introgression between early Eurasians and archaic human species, such as Neanderthals and Denisovans, are beginning to offer novel insights into the evolutionary and phenotypical consequences of hybridization."
Races/subspecies exist in humans, not just populations/ecotypes/demes, and the enormous evidence is mounting. Gene flow between human groups was limited and only occurred at certain times, and its presence does not preclude the existence of separate lineages, or of subspecies/races (gene flow between subspecies of other mammals doesn't preclude their existence, so why would it in humans). Furthermore, certain human racial groups/subspecies have archaic human DNA from other species which ONLY they possess. Race denialists are at odds with evolutionary biology itself, and their PC agenda is coming to an end. (talk) 11:05, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
The article doesn't deny subspecies once existed, but they don't now for the reasons outlined. Another, correction: subspecies are not as common in animal species as you maintain i.e. look up the prevalence of monotypic species.Octo (talk) 12:46, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
The evidence is increasing, massively, that subspecies DO exist in humans. They never "stopped existing", as the populations retained distinct isolation and preferential endogamy into the present day and limited gene flow does not preclude the existence of subspecies. The "clinal variation" in humans is 1) not uniform 2) not equally gradual and 3) has massive abrupt or sudden shifts in most regions in the world in specific areas. There are discontinuities in the clines of varying magnitude depending on the region (e.g. Sardinians, Basques, Finns, Kosovar Albanians and Sami people in Europe). There has been zero gene flow between Australoids (Negritos, Papuans, Australian Aborigines, Andamanese) and sub-Saharan Africans, for example. The reasons you outline are not supported by the physiological or genetic evidence. Gene flow exist between all subspecies in other mammals. Just look at the cladogram of subspecies in wolves, which clearly shows significant gene flow and clines not only between wolf subspecies, but between other canid SPECIES (similar to gene flow between human species): A genome-wide perspective on the evolutionary history of enigmatic wolf-like canids. Clinal variation therefore does not preclude subspecies, as clines exist between subspecies in most cases, and are of varying gradients (some gradual and some abrupt), just as in human populations. I just gave you one example further above of a human hunter-gatherer group who is STILL today fully isolated from the rest of humanity, and has been continually for 30,000 years. The Andamanese Islanders are very much one of the subspecies or races of humans, especially the fully isolated and uncontacted North Sentinelese on North Sentinel Island. Every mammalian species has populations, demes, clines, ecotypes, etc., while most have subspecies. Nearly every primate has subspecies, and every mammal that has had as much geographic and temporal dispersion as homo sapiens has developed into numerous subspecies. The Khoisan groups of southern Africa were isolated for up to 130,000 years from the rest of humanity. Recent gene flow, again, does not cease their race or subspecies from existing as a distinct lineage from the rest of humanity. Not only that, modern human groups have DNA they ONLY possess from OTHER hominin species, and this is STILL the case. Non-Sub-Saharan Africans have Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA, while sub-Saharan Africans do not. East Asians have some Denisovan DNA, Europeans do not, and East Asians have more Neanderthal DNA than Europeans. Negritos, Andamanese, Papuans and Australian Aborigines (Australoids) have DNA from a THIRD unknown hominin that is not found in other subspecies, races or populations - also, these Australoid peoples have up to 12-15% total DNA from other hominin species, which is level substantially higher than any other human subspecies, race or population. That it more than enough for subspecies delineation in any other mammalian species. There is no scientific consensus right now, and the evidence in many papers still use race in their works as a synonym for subspecies or populations in divergent human groups. (talk) 22:35, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

This is a clustering analysis of wolf subspecies and other canid species (there is significant gene flow between coyotes and wolves, despite being separate species): structure clustering analysis of domestic and wild canids It has clinal variation and population structure similar to humans. Some of these wolf subspecies have formed in less than 10,000 years, which is FAR, FAR less time than human groups were isolated until the modern era. These canid species and subspecies have also seen limited gene flow between them at different times, as has been the case between human races/subspecies/populations, but this gene flow does not stop them from being distinct subspecies, lineages, races or populations. Templeton's claims of gene flow precluding distinct lineages and subspecies is nonsensical, and unsupported by the genetic evidence and biological literature. If subspecies exist in wolves, they exist in humans. North Sentinelese Islanders have not had gene flow from the rest of humanity in 30,000 years, while other human groups and populations were mostly isolated for between 70,000 and 150,000 years, admixed with other local hominin species, and had limited and unique or specific gene flow in that time. New subspecies form all the time in other species due to unique admixture of differentiated populations. As just because better and newer subspecies and racial categories are being introduced or re-evaluated in humans, this is not a reason against their validity because subspecies (and species) are constantly being delineated and re-evaluated in other mammals. This is seen easily in wolves, with new species and subspecies being introduced over over the past decades, and especially so in the past two decades with the onset of population genetic and genomics. Italian wolves and Iberian wolves were once thought to simply be part of the Eurasian wolf subspecies, but now have been conclusively shown to be distinct lineages and distinct subspecies isolated for similar timescales that humans were in Europe during the last ice age, despite the existence of limited gene flow. Just as human subspecies and races and populations have been refined and reevaluated with newer data, so is the cases with subspecies in other mammals. Humans are mammals, and are not somehow "special" from the rest of the animal kingdom. No species as geographically and temporally (200,000 - 300,000 years) dispersed as humans are, and which has interbred with so many other distinct species to the extent we have, has been monotypic and not formed subspecies. (talk) 22:52, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Someone should please ban this IP user from ever posting on RationalWiki again. Don't engage with its arguments or with the papers it linked to. Just ban it. --Jean Lusaz (talk) 10:58, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

FYI, @Jean Lusaz we don't permanently block IP users because IP addresses tend to get reassigned fairly rapidly. For that reason, we don't block IP addresses for more that about 3 days. We also don't generally block any user for any time just because we disagree with them. Also, generally, we don't remove comments on talk pages that we disagree with. Exceptions to removal of comments would be threats, harassment or doxing. Bongolian (talk) 17:03, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
@, yes there's clearly are a few living isolated populations, another example are the Amish. But calling these populations "races" runs into the following issue:

Such genetic isolation might refer to the Amish in America (Appiah 1996, 73) or to Irish Protestants (Zack 2002, 69), but they clearly cannot refer to those groupings of people presently subsumed under American racial census categories. Because the concept “race” can only apply to groups not typically deemed races (Amish, Irish Protestants), and because this concept cannot apply to groups typically deemed races (African Americans, Whites, Asians, Native Americans), a mismatch occurs between the concept and its typical referent. Thus, the concept of race must be eliminated due to its logical incoherence (Mallon 2006, 526, 533).

Octo (talk) 18:07, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
I find that to be a nonsensical argument, at odds with biological taxonomy in general. It's not "a few groups" either that have been isolated, but most groups, as there would be no population structure between groups without it, with the level of difference varying between subspecies, ecotype (either could be race), population/ethnicity or demes. If Khoisan, Andaman Islanders and Hadza are distinct subspecies, then so are Bantu/Niger-Congo people, Europeans, Middle Easterners and East Asians, among others (including more specific groups), from whom to contrast them with. Modern human subspecies, populations, ecotypes, ethnicities or racial populations have all had varying degrees of isolation (that was the norm from 70,000 - 200,000 years), for different periods of time, and with unique introgressions from specific other hominin species or other human populations. "Race" is used as a biological classifier, either equivalent to subspecies, or subordinate to it and related to ecotype, population, cline or deme. There is no "logical incoherence" to it, merely an ongoing scientific debate as to which taxonomic levels the term "race" refers to - and not just in humans, but in all organisms with populations below the rank of species. Classifications are being revised and changed all the time in all species, and it has been especially happening since the rise of population genetics and genomics. Subspecies are being elevated to species or downgraded to populations or ecotypes, species are downgraded to subspecies or elevated to their own genera, etc. "Race" merely needs to be clarified on whether it is referring to subspecies or a lower taxonomy of population or ecotype, but it does not mean the classification itself is irrelevant or unsupported, nor does it warrant the now clearly rejected and erroneous statements of social "scientists" of the past two to three decades that "race does not exist" - a statement now with no biological support. If this is a platform supporting rationality and science, how could anyone oppose the countless respected, peer-reviewed, academic studies I posted with enormous genetic evidence, and which clearly refer to the use of "race" or "racial populations" as a classifier in humans, either in terms of subspecies, populations or ecotypes (all of which exist in our species).
Amish and Irish Protestants may be of a lower taxonomic level, such as demes, populations or ecotypes, which are often now generally often equated with ethnic group. But this is not a valid argument to remove race as an equivalent term for a classifier above this, either equivalent to subspecies or as an intermediate between subspecies and ethnicity/population. As DNA results now clearly show, there are differing levels of taxonomic classification in ethnic/ancestral populations, for example: Highland Scottish -> British & Irish -> Northwestern European -> European (I would add a further, higher category of West Eurasian/"Caucasoid"). "Highland Scot" and "British & Irish" would be the lowest levels, either as demes, ethnicities or populations, while "Northwestern European", "European" and "West Eurasian"/"Caucasian" could all be a taxonomic rank equivalent to race and/or subspecies.
Added below is a study from 2017 showing that the Khoisan of South Africa diverged as early as 200,000 years ago - that is enough for species divergence in other organisms, let alone subspecies - and remained isolated for most of that time from the rest of humanity until recent, very limited gene flow occurred in the past 1,000 years. The Hadza in East Africa have been found to have diverged nearly 100,000 years ago and remained heavily isolated for most of that time until receiving very minor gene flow in the past 2,000 years. The Negritos, Papuans and Australian Aborigines diverged 70,000 years ago, and have archaic admixture of 12-15% from three other hominin species, including a 'ghost' hominin which is not shared with any other human racial groups or populations. Subspecies, populations and ecotypes are now known to all exist in modern humans.
Southern African ancient genomes estimate modern human divergence to 350,000 to 260,000 years ago (2017):
"Using traditional and new approaches, we estimate the first modern human population divergence time to between 350,000 and 260,000 years ago."
Genetic Ancestry of Hadza and Sandawe Peoples Reveals Ancient Population Structure in Africa (2018)
"We estimated divergence times of ∼98,000 to ∼96,000  years for Hadza ancestry from Eastern Pygmy and Khoisan ancestries, respectively, followed by divergence times of ∼89,000 and ∼88,000 years for Western Pygmy and Sandawe ancestries, respectively, and then followed by divergence times of ∼81,000 to 76,000 years for Arabian, Berber, eastern and southern Bantu-speaking, Nilo-Saharan, and Western Niger-Congo ancestries".
Tibetans have unique DNA, inherited from another hominin species (Denisovans), which has allowed them to evolve unique adaptations to surviving at high altitude not found in ANY other human racial group, population or subspecies:
Altitude adaptation in Tibet caused by introgression of Denisovan-like DNA (2014)
The Contribution of Neanderthals to Phenotypic Variation in Modern Humans (2017)
This shows the unique genetics and and evolutionary adaptations of Europeans, not found in other populations, which we inherited from Neanderthals:

"Here, we show that Neanderthal DNA affects skin tone and hair color, height, sleeping patterns, mood, and smoking status in present-day Europeans." (talk) 10:51, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
It's a waste of time arguing with these people. They refute a strawman definition of race, which apparently makes them progressive and hip or something. This place was set up to troll Conservapedia, it's not a real science site. (talk) 11:57, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

FAQ by geneticist about how racists abuse their research, and problems with the things they say[edit]

this google doc was prepared by a geneticist who found alt-right people disseminated his paper with misleading and wrong statements attached. It consists of lay responses to many of the misleading and dishonest claims. Haven't gone through our article to check how it aligns yet. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 20:19, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Misinformation and fake references[edit]

Edit warring[edit]

Why is this article a lighting rod for edit warring and trolling? Tabula Rasa (talk) 06:30, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

Usefullness of this text sadly not given[edit]

Intention should be to point out weak points of racialists.

As such, it would be more useful to bare out common ground, i.e. 1. behavior or skills are genetical inherited by parental lineage (but it is disputed on how much) 2. environment shapes our skills (and it is disputed on how much).

In biology races are animal types that can mate with another.

-> Racialists extend this definition of possible matable subtypes by either 1. bla, 2. bla, 3. bla

It might be more useful to sum up that racialism as weak concept gives less accureate assumptions and may only be useful for simplistic overviews when the measured differences are big enough (taking other causalities into effect).