User talk:PalMD/Archive4

Autism

Hey when you get a chance check out Autism and pseudoscience. My idea is starting to take shape. I would like to put together a really solid "package" of articles on this, well presented, ect. Then I am going to pass that link off to several of the major blogs that have been covering the issue as a "hey, check us out" thing and invite them to post about it if they think their readers would like to explore RW more. The better our package the better luck we will have. If this works we can expand it for other topics as well. Tmtoulouse 10:04, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

This looks fun. If i can, i'll take a big crack at it later today.75.62.26.189 10:10, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

Hey, can you go over Autism omnibus trial and adjust what you think needs adjusting. Its probably the "hook" for the series as its most timely and what everyone is talking about so we need it as good as we can get it. Thanks. Tmtoulouse 16:58, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

Also did you want to take a stab at Lupron therapy or shall I start that one? What about the "major players"? Want to split them? I think its coming along well, I hope we get some good play off this. Tmtoulouse 19:28, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

The trial article is nice...of course, I haven't been following the damn thing, or really any of the connected issues, so i'll have to read a little.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 19:30, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

As a layman, can I add that diagnostic procedures have warped the statistics (I think)? What used to be "autism" and very rare is now "aspergers/autistic spectrum disorder" or some such, and is much more common, since aspergers is much milder (no offense intended to sufferers, of course). human^{be in} 21:05, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

Hair Analysis

Being a doctor, could you maybe explain on the page why Hair Analysis shouldn't/doesn't/won't work? Thunderkatz 13:02, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

Sounds fun...also, a rename of the friggin article.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 13:07, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

Rename to what? Thunderkatz 13:17, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

i Think it maY have a capiTal Letter problem.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 13:18, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

Or maybe it's ok..checking.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 13:19, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

Interesting reading

Did you see this?. tmtoulouse ^pester 18:35, 11 July 2007 (CDT)

Yeah, ive been following it. Its a huge disgrace.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 18:38, 11 July 2007 (CDT)

Kidding?

Is Conservapedia a joke, or do they really believe in the crap they are spewing? Dagomar 19:06, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

Most of the folks over there absolutely believe it. They are the real thing, not a parody. Each of the biggies over there has their own issue, however. There are very few classic conservatives. I've talked to most of them online, and have a pretty clear idea about them.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 19:18, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

Oh God, what would be the best way to stop this crap? Dagomar 19:44, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

In general, or CP specifically? In general, voting for Democrats and less-insane Republicans, to get the more rabid Christofascists and Empire-Builders out. Better public education standards would surely help, but that would take 14-20 years to have any affect. Boycotting Fox "News" wouldn't hurt, either. Supporting impeachment proceedings against ol' Chimpy McHitlerburton and Dick Cheney, maybe? As for CP itself, there isn't that much we can do, since they keep banning us, except to help them in their efforts to look ridiculous. --Gulik 20:52, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

Autism and pseudoscience

I want to try and get this in order so I can start pimping our site :). I have put up some good reading at: Talk:Geier family and Talk:Lupron therapy. If you want to collect sources on some of the other stuff or start working on some of the outstanding articles that would be cool...or are you sick of the autism stuff all together? I can finish it up if you want to move on to something else. Either way thanks for the help so far. tmtoulouse ^pester 12:50, 13 July 2007 (CDT)

I can probably take some time this weekend, but i'm not sure if i can get to it until monday. We'll see, thanks for the refs for me to check out.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 13:08, 13 July 2007 (CDT)

It's timely. The doctor who started the autism/MMR vaccine debate in england is going up against the medical council after being charged with misconduct in carrying out his research and not declaring COI. I'll help if i can, if you want. Д^ιЯɖі$ɧ _ɥοםЄʟ^{βЯƏакĐΩωΝ} 11:19, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

Quick answers

I may take more time to clarify on the talk page where the question was asked, but for now, the death rate among children due to cavities is much less than it is due to malaria. The DDT is not medicating the patient, but the flouride is. I am all for individuals being able to refuse to have their property not treated with DDT. Heart♥Gold^{Preach to somebody not in the choir} 09:50, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

And what about vaccines? Vaccine-preventable diseases kill as many people as malaria, or nearly so.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 10:11, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

Also, if I live next to you and don't use DDT, my old tires are gonna kill your family. It either has to be universal or not.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 10:11, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

No offense to you personally, but I have already made the observation on RW that liberals are more concerned about perceived hypocrisy than rationally evaluating greater goods. It was in the context of the abortion/death penalty debate, where liberals are often more concerned about a perceived hypocrisy on the part of conservatives regarding the sanctity of life than comparing the number of innocent fetuses aborted every year to the number of innocent men executed every year. Your line of inquiry follows this pattern.

I support voluntary vaccination programs (as all U.S. vaccine programs are in fact voluntary, even if they are referred to as "mandatory" by the mainstream press. I also support full disclosure and informed decision making on the part of the parents.

Regarding DDT and my neighbors, good point. Problem already exists. Mosquito control in my state is not allowed to spray for mosquitos within 700 feet of any property that objects (e.g., for perceived allergies). Doesn't seem like a convincing argument that we should throw the baby (DDT) out with the bathwater (effectivness less than 100% due in part to uncopperative individuals). Heart♥Gold^{Preach to somebody not in the choir} 14:31, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

Pure fiction

The [[Essay Talk:The pernicious liberal swarm#toilet_talk| stuff I added]] on toilet talk was made up by me. (Not the "electric toilet", that was entirely true.) Though it may very well be true. I dunno. CЯacke® 10:48, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

You're a friggin trouble-maker, but it just goes to show how something can sound plausible, yet be fiction.Lulz all around.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 13:22, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

It does sound plausible, but you'll note my BS detector seemed to work in this case. Heart♥Gold^{Preach to somebody not in the choir} 14:33, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

Chelation

Wouldnt the administration of Activated Charcoal be a form of chelation therapy? Dagomar 19:51, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

Not exactly...carbon acts by adsorption, and is administered orally to bind a potential toxic substance that has been ingested. THere is no chemical chelation.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 19:54, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

thanks, it is perfectly clear. I was reading Chlation Therapy and wanted to run that by you before adding Poison Control methods Dagomar 19:59, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

Ill put something on the talk page about it.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 20:00, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

response to "rouleaux"

Nah, I dunno who "rouleaux" is, so he isn't a relative of mine. =P I got my name from the reuleaux triangle[1], a very interesting figure. Reuleaux 17:01, 19 July 2007 (CDT)

Very interesting. I'm more familiar with this.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 17:21, 19 July 2007 (CDT)

I remember reading about those! Are you a Wankeler, then? human^{be in} 21:23, 19 July 2007 (CDT)

Im not sure what a wankeler is, but i see rouleaux all the time.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 21:38, 19 July 2007 (CDT)

grace

well, it looks like I have been blocked, and as such, I am more powerful than you. However, I have chosen to display grace and not ban you for life. _BohdanResident vandal^{complain here} 19:35, 19 July 2007 (CDT)

I dunno. Wasn't it "more powerful than you can imagine"? What if he has a really lousy imagination? --Kels 14:51, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

Recognition

		Tireless Worker Award
		For your tireless work on Vaccine hysteria, you are hereby awarded the "Tireless Worker Award". Heart♥GoldPreach to somebody not in the choir 23:15, 19 July 2007 (CDT)

Wow, That's nice....I see the wife let you out to edit, ain't it still your people's Shabbat day? j/k good to see youse. CЯacke® 19:13, 21 July 2007 (CDT)

"He always did his best." Hey, what are you stopping to read this for? Back to work! --Kels 14:52, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

Psoriasis

Seen any of the Quack cures for Psoriasis? I had it for almost 50 years & tried eveything & then it went overnight (well - overthreemonth). All sorts of things were tried, creams, salt baths, UV, drinking urine (my own & only once -ugh!), washing in urine, anti-histamines note - no laying on of hands etc. And then - TARRAAA (sound of trumpets & cymbals) - menopause! Keep^{the faith} 11:59, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

Sounds interesting...gotta put it on my to do list...162.82.215.199 14:56, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

Krotch's pustulates

Are you fairly familiar with this topic? tmtoulouse ^pester 17:35, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

I sense an assignment coming...--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 17:36, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

Hahahahaha. I also left you some cleanup to do at alternative medicine. :P 17:42, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

NO! HIV denial first. And tmtoulouse, you have to finish non-materialist neuroscience. Thunderkatz^Ho! 17:43, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

I hate to leave an article before it looks halfway decent. We'll keep going on it, as soon as work slows down a bit.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 17:52, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

Oh, of course. As far as AM, I figure you could do in five minutes better than what I could in an hour. human^{be in} 18:20, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

It's officially on my to do list...as long as my bosses/spouse don't kill me first.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 18:27, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

Hahaha. Anyway, if you want a quick copy-editorial look-over of the HIV denial piece when you're "mostly done" just ping me. Although, it doesn't look like it needs much editing... human^{be in} 18:54, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

Ah, not so much an assignment, just curious, my biology background is HEAVILY evolutionary based so I am a fan of Paul Ewald's work which is sort of a counter to Koch's postulate. I am have almost been converted to the view that Koch's is merely a sufficient and not necessary description for assigning a disease to an organism. I was just wondering if you followed that debate or not. 24.141.169.255 20:17, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

I haven't but I am aware that there is controversy...however, arguments often fall back to Koch. Koch's ideas do not quite fit modern science well...there are many problems, including novel infectious agents (e.g. viruses, prions), and methodologic issues solved by modern statistics. I am curious to know more of the critiques.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 20:21, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

What Ewauld does is try to examine what sorts of statistical patterns in epidemiology we see in response to infectious agents in an evolutionary sense to try and separate out what is and is not caused by such an agent. The "arms race" seems to show that in humans at least do to the oscillation between the immune system and virus getting the upper hand there is an incident percentage that swings from 1 percent to 3 percent. Ewald sees that as a "signature" of an evolutoinary arms race with an infectious agent and tries to assign an infection agent cause to any thing that shows that oscillation pattern in incident percentage.24.141.169.255 20:30, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

Which is fascinating, but no catchy mottos. I'm interested in how we prove something is the infectious agent, and I haven't read much on it in a long time. Koch is still easy to think about, but modern stats are nice.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 20:34, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

Its actually a lot more interesting and complicated pattern than many people suspect. But yes, for something like an HIV denial article Koch's postulates work well to frame the issue. But just like creationist who use Gould's "punctuated equlibrium" as a weapon against "evolution" many "germ theory" denialist (and there are still many) use the fine tuned arguments around Koch's postulates to aruge that we really havent "proved" diseases are caused by germs. tmtoulouse ^pester 20:38, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

Homeopathic surgery

Have you heard about this shit? 24.141.169.255 12:05, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

Yeah, i read it a little while ago. I'm trying to come up with a piece for my blog, but i want to research it a bit. Scary.162.82.215.199 13:17, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

You thought you could hide from me!

Well you didn't try very hard. I am of course speaking of when you welcomed me to Rational Wiki on my talk page, but did not leave a signature! Well it wasn't hard to track you down to say thanks. So, thanks for welcoming me! YB 19:37, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

Visiting the MD

Must remember to see my doctor after he's had his tea. And what if (s)he forgets to log in& can't find my records? Keep^{the faith} 16:23, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

Damn, busted.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 16:45, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

Curious

I've been meaning to ask for a while but keep forgetting, what's your opinion on aromatherapy? With regard to it being science or pseudoscience, that is. --Kels 16:27, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

It depends on what is claimed. If getting a massage with various scented oils is claimed to be soothing, well, I'll buy that. But if it makes health claims, it has to show the same kind of data that I have to show when I treat a medical condition. It's probably worth putting on my to do list. Thanks.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 16:45, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

I mention it because I've heard some fairly reasonable, and impressive in their own way, stories about its use in mental health therapies, such as for autism and Alzheimer. And of course claims regarding various essential oils would be related. --Kels 16:49, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

Now that really piques my interest. I would love to see someone try to back up those claims. Certainly, I can see it being soothing, but i cannot come up with a viable mechanism of action for it doing anything other than that. Testimonials won't cut it...if someone is offering to treat autism or alzheimers (other than, say, symptoms of agitation, but im hesitant there too) they better be able to back up their ideas with data. --PalMD^-Goatspeed! 16:51, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

Well, I say treatment and not cure. The idea is to use scent to make the patient responsive, particularly in the case of autism, where normal verbal and physical cues may not be effective. Like I said, reasonable claims, rather than outlandish ones. --Kels 16:56, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

Treatment or cure, if the claims are not extaordinary, then the evidence need not be as extraordinary--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 17:10, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

Mmmmm. Patchouli ..... Keep^{the faith} 16:47, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

Patchouli always reminds me of the hairy-legged hippie women i dated in college.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 16:48, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

I had a friend back east, utterly brilliant man when he was on his meds, but then he'd go off and his schizophrenia would take hold. He'd heard somewhere that patchouli was an aphrodesiac, so he wore this little spirit pouch that he'd douse with patchouli whenever he had a chance.

Now imagine this gaunt, bearded figure, sort of like Gandalf gone the way of Keith Richards, ghosting around smelling strongly of rancid patchouli, looking for...something... --Kels 16:55, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

I was that hippy girl; oh but I did depillate. Keep^{the faith} 17:00, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

Aromatherapy, like many things, have a weak claim and a strong claim. The weak claim that smells can have effects on psychology such as calming probably isn't too outlandish. The olfactory sensor processors have eferant connections to the limbic region so thats interesting...but the strong claims, about improving health, curing disease altering mental states in extream ways (peppermint makes you smart!) thats all bullshit. tmtoulouse ^pester 17:11, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

I'm curious, actually, if the bullshit comment is based on actual study, or just assumption. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that chemical agents in concentrated form (i.e., pure essential oils) entering the body nasally would have the potential to interact with bodily systems, chemical uptake in the brain, etc. I mean, we're talking actual chemical reactions here, not ethereal stuff like therapeutic touch. Now I haven't done an in-depth study either, but I don't want to see something beneficial blown off the way some other now-accepted practices (acupuncture, for instance) were for a long time.

Not that I'm saying the extreme claims are necessarily right, but claiming health impacts doesn't seem that extreme to me. --Kels 15:18, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

The burden of proof is on the folks who make the claims...and woo can sound reasonable, but we need to come up with actual mechanisms. And accupuncture is partially accepted...it works for some things, but not for the reasons that people think...needs more study...ill check medline on aromatherapy and be back in a minute.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 15:28, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

Of course it is, and I don't mean to suggest otherwise. I'm just cautioning against a premature, blanket accusation of bullshit. If there are elements that are worthwhile, as in the case of acupuncture, then I'd rather not throw the baby out with the bathwater. --Kels 15:30, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

So far, most of the literature i can find are pilot studies assessing the feasibility of doing further studies. I found one interesting one in which there may have been some relief of menstrual cramps, but the number of subjects was small, the the statistics were not very significant. Still looking.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 15:36, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

Well, not much in the literature...it's tough to do controlled trials with something that smells, but it seems possible. No one has proven any of the claims yet though.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 15:40, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

I'm not really surprised. I had some conversations with an aromatherapy practitioner back east, and from what I gathered, it's only recently that they've been working on becoming a profession and getting some more solid scientific underpinnings to what they're doing. Most everything you'll find is likely to be of recent vintage, I'd wager. --Kels 15:44, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

Hmm...I wonder if there might not be something regarding respiratory problems and eucalyptus and/or tea tree oils? Those are pretty old connections, and I still remember the eucalyptus smells from the old Vicks Vap-O-Rub as a kid. --Kels 15:46, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

I didn't see anything in the first 90 hits.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 16:19, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

Homeopath

He's been back again! - our homeopath. But he won't stay & talk.

Oops sorry - invaded your castle Keep^happy 01:48, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

My home is yours.75.62.26.189 08:12, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

Hey Pal: there's an interloping IP claiming to be you See above) - what a lazy cheeky fellow. Keep^happy 09:14, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

I always said he was a heretic and a no-goodnick DocSock

Interestingly, our pet homeopath (IP 84.108.244.22) likes to use asterisks to precede his comments. human^{be in} 14:04, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

You noticed that too?--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 14:36, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

signing in...

"User:162.82.215.199 PalMD is a lazy SOB."

Doc, considering how much you contribute to talk pages, and that you probably don't have a static IP, can you at least type "-Doc" or "PalMD" if you notice the top of the screen says "sign in", before hitting "save"? Or better yet, please try to get in the habit of checking if you're logged in before hitting "edit"? It's just hard keeping track of who is saying what, and it's also a pain leaving welcome tags on all your IPs. Please? I'm not mad, just begging. For a great example of where it would help, see talk:homeopathy, where an anon IP is also commenting, and not signing. Thanks for your consideration... human^{be in} 14:10, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

No prob...just my usual carelessness.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 14:36, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

Tel it to him Human. (but make sure he's had his tea - 'cause he's a grumpy old doc till he's been fed.) Keep^happy 14:39, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

I slept last night, so Im in better sorts. Sorry. Of course, idiots will still piss me off...I want that "homeopath" to come out of the closet with some data. I like data. Goes good with tea.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 14:44, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

• • But why should I explain anything to you when I am right and you are wrong? 84.108.244.22^quiet 15:03, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
    • Arghhhh!!!!--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 15:05, 26 July 2007 (CDT) 15:04, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

Peace

I could see you thinking that I am over-protective of my children, but hate? I don't get it. If you want to edify me, feel free, here or on my talk page. Meanwhile, I am out for the night. Peace. Heart♥Gold^{Preach to somebody not in the choir} 22:46, 30 July 2007 (CDT)

Your block for the move

Umn, it's a wiki, move it back. Also, could you point me to the place where the community expressed its disapproval for the move? Heart♥Gold^{Preach to somebody not in the choir} 14:38, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

We have always operated on the priciple that we should reach consensus before changing an article to an essay. Objecting post facto is a PITA--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 14:39, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

You could have asked me to undo it if it was a lot of work. Also, could you point me to the place where RW precedent is de facto grounds for blocking? Heart♥Gold^{Preach to somebody not in the choir} 14:44, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

Troll and wiki-lawyer! You're multi-talented, dude. --Kels 14:45, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

Moved stuff from Main page talk

Hey Doc, where did you move this to so I can keep following it? Thanks, human^{be in} 22:02, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

Oh, never mind, I found it at RationalWiki:Administrative Abuse. Thanks anyway! human^{be in} 22:04, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

By the way, I typed all this stuff in ages ago: Evolution:A_Christian's_Faith, and haven't figured out exactly what would be best to do with it. Was thinking of moving it to essay and just ranting on the "RW" side, but I am open to ideas... I do want to break it into more sections for clarity of editing. Thanks, human^{be in} 22:18, 31 July 2007 (CDT)

delete?

Pal : d'you want to delete [[Political_opportunism]] - it was only a dig at HG? Keep^{it under your hat!} 22:31, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

It's your baby...if you want me to, and no one else likes it--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 22:34, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

Maybe you wanna sign back in?CЯacke® 22:39, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

Fuck, i thought i did.--PalMD^-Goatspeed! 22:48, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

problem

"Factual edits with sources needed here. First, it was primarily Jews, political dissidents, gypsies and homosexuals killed in the camps." Taken from [2]. Are you forgetting about the Slavs? Resident vandal 15:29, 2 August 2007 (CDT)

Good question...i'd have to look that up...thankfully the Nazis kept very good records. As you know, russians, byelorussians, and ukrainians died in the tens of millions during the purges and during the war. They were obviously on the "front of the front". I don't recall if they were singled out by Einsatzgruppen as the Jews were on the eastern front, but it was hardly necessary to put them in camps, as they represented most of the population, and it was being devestated by war. Obviously, party officials, commissars, etc were killed pretty damn fast and brutally.162.82.215.199 18:08, 2 August 2007 (CDT)

Water fluoridation

Once I get back from vacation I'm going to take a stab (slurp?) at this... ŠтΈṜȳŁЁ^and...? 16:45, 2 August 2007 (CDT)

Abortion

I consolidated some of the side-by-side in the abortion article. I'm wondering if you have anything about the non-cancer health and psychology claims to add or point me at.--MountainTiger 17:50, 6 August 2007 (CDT)

My intertubes are leaking, but i can dig some stuff up for you. Hold on...--PalMD^{-Si Quaeris Peninsulam Amoenam Circumspice!} 19:37, 6 August 2007 (CDT)

This is part of it, but i have to dig up the references too.--PalMD^{-Si Quaeris Peninsulam Amoenam Circumspice!} 19:39, 6 August 2007 (CDT)

BTW

I love you ESL troll on your blog. tmtoulouse ^pester 18:42, 7 August 2007 (CDT)

Yeah, it's hard to parse through is portugese-lish, but I'm guessing he means well...which doesn't mitigate the harm so much, but I like to believe he's not downright evil. Since I've found some intertubes up here, I am been tinking I must to do some RW work.--PalMD^{-Si Quaeris Peninsulam Amoenam Circumspice!} 06:28, 8 August 2007 (CDT)

In Regards to the new fossil finds

The media coverage has been nauseating, the whole "evolution turned upside down" "h. habilis can not be an ancestor" "human evolution is not linear like previously thought." Gag, science reporters needs to stop with the sensationalism it just fuels the creationist. Maybe a good article here would be common media mistakes in regards to reporting on evolution. 24.141.169.255 23:01, 9 August 2007 (CDT)