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Forum:Wherein I try to avoid "whining"

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Moved from saloon bar to prevent other people from seeing my "whining".

given up[edit]

Well, that's it. Deleted my online dating profiles. Serious question - what are the negative consequences of chemical castration or otherwise. I want to stop feeling this feeling of holding someone and making them feel special. It's inconvenient. Suppose I have some googling to do. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 14:10, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

I doubt that chemical castration will take away the desire to hold someone & make them feel special, as that's not an entirely sexual desire, but then I have no expertise in this area (castration). Talk to a doctor, counsellor or therapist about these issues. Don't assume that the answer you've come up with is the right one (if it's even an option at all). WëäŝëïöïďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 14:38, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
If you like animals, getting a pet can help. Obviously it's not the same as having a partner or a child, but it does satisfy to some extent the instincts for companionship & having someone to look after. WeaseloidWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 14:59, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Seconding the recommendation to talk to a therapist. Work out whether your standards are too high, you're doing something wrong, or you've just had a run of bad luck.--ADtalkModerator 15:52, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Stay involved with people. Become a Scout Master or something. nobsSay hello to my leetle friend 17:19, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Stay involved with people. Learn to contra-dance. (Being a scoutmaster is a fine thing, if you've got the skills and temperament for it.) Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 17:54, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

You know what, I'm with you. I have three ways of thinking. With my mostly rational (I hope so) brain, with my stomach, and with my genitals. Perhaps The non-essential one isn't necessary for me either, especially since I gave up long long ago. --P3A58NT86 15:54, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Maybe a few hundred years from now, we'll be able to change our sexual orientations to asexuality.--Krejtalk 15:57, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm 28, m, and never been kissed. Not disfigured nor overweight. Have a good job, lots of money. I don't care anymore. At least I don't want to care anymore. I was just told that I'm a jerk, bitter, angry, and that no one would ever like me if I didn't change. I don't think that. I think I'm a nice person. I don't want to change. So fuck it. And meh, whenever I talk about this, always ends the same way, just like that. I've done therapy lol as a kid, several therapists. A lot of good that did besides wasting my parents's money. -- It seems there are negative health side effects to chemical castration. How unfortunate. /sigh EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 19:59, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Let me add my voice to the chorus: You need to talk to someone, and pronto. You're in a bad place right now, and reaching out can only help. I feel weird offering advice to a stranger on the internet, but you posted here in a semi-public forum, so I'm assuming that you might be looking for some. There seem to be two problems at play. One: Not gettin' any. Two: Fed up with how One is making you feel. Problem Two is actually more worrying, because phrases like "I don't want to care anymore" and considering radical physical measures are scary things to read. Don't hurt yourself. Talk to people. As for Problem One, meeting more and different kinds of people is key. Get out of your comfort zone, and, as tough as it is, don't worry about "looking for a partner." Line your life as a fantastic person and you will attract the right sort of people. That's what worked for me, anyways. Also, sex therapists/sexual surrogates exist for a reason. Polar Bear in the Jungle Peter Tosh > Bob Marley 20:12, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, I was looking for genuine advice on how to remove these useless feelings. Seems like there's not a good way, and now everyone is trying to get me back. For the most part, I am happy, except when I think about this. I'd rather be having fun, working, playing LoL, surfing the internet. Wish there was some non-radical options. Guess I just get to live with it. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 20:45, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
And ok, let's do this. I've tried online dating for many years. I ask people out IRL somewhat frequently too. They always say no. I managed to get one date once via okcupid. She ignored all my messages since. I am unwilling to join some shitty club or something on the off chance that I might meet someone there. Worse, it has been suggested that it's doomed to failure, as you suggest, and instead I have to merely join shitty clubs and purposefully not look for people. That sounds like a truly atrocious idea. I'd rather die alone than waste that much time. I just wish I didn't have to feel so bad while doing it. It's not a matter of comfort zone. It's a matter of wasting my life on boring uninteresting activities. I'm just not a people person, and I do not enjoy such things. Really, it's that I don't like small-talking. Then again, I'm just guessing. I don't know. Whatever it is, I've had this problem my whole life. I cannot relate to people. -- But really, sex therapists? What? Presumably I would need to be a situation where sex might be an option before I ask the help of such people. This is more of getting a first date therapist, unless I've grossly mistaken the purview of sex therapists. Sexual surrogate? Are we talking prostitutes? I'd rather die. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 20:54, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
" I was looking for genuine advice on how to remove these useless feelings" Yeah, the feelings are useless, but at the same time, they're justified. Unless you're a true asexual--which it looks like you're not--a healthy romantic/sexual life is an important part of being human. You're gonna have a real hard time switching off either the desire for love/romance/sex or the feelings that the lack thereof causes. What you're desiring is not out of the realm of reasonableness--it's not like you're miserable because you don't have your own private jet or something--it's an important part of being a human being. Better you find a way to take care of those desires than to try to alienate yourself from them.
Sex surrogates are not prostitutes, they are trained professionals who help people deal with their problems with achieving intimacy/sexual satisfaction, and there are sex therapists/relationship who deal with the whole spectrum of relationship concerns. And, a propos of nothing, don't be so quick to knock sex work. This is a great read about a guy who went that route and had a generally positive time with it. Polar Bear in the Jungle Peter Tosh > Bob Marley 21:00, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Still, I think this is the not the purview of such specialists. I would need something in basic social skills, or something. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 21:02, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Possibly? If you can make small talk with the people you work with and have good social skills with your buddies at the pub, but then can't keep that together when you're talking to some pretty young thing who smells like flowers, then we're not really in the realm of "EL has no social skills" as we are in the realm of relationship-sexuality-romance stuff type issues. Polar Bear in the Jungle Peter Tosh > Bob Marley 21:09, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Making small talk at the pub or otherwise? That's assuming a lot. I have some friends, but my smalltalk skills are questionable, and I avoid bars like the plague. I don't drink, I don't like being around people who are drinking, and it otherwise has no appeal for me. My idea of a good time is to rant about my latest escapades on reasonablefaith, talk about Paine, bitch about (computer science) build systems with colleagues, talk about the latest project, talk about the newest Dresden book, and whatever else comes up. So I guess I smalltalk, but on issues most people do not understand nor care about. And now I'm being elitist. Maybe that's true, maybe it's not. I don't know. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 21:12, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Oh, and carbon detonations. It is so fascinating. I sometimes read random wiki articles on astrophysics because it's so fun. Carbon detonation never gets old. Because the pressure doesn't depend on temperature, once a little bit of fusion starts, it does a chain reaction, destroying the entire star in a matter of seconds or less IIRC. And that is just amazing to think about. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 21:23, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Dunno what to say really except to ask whether you have really put yourself out there enough? What are your mates doing - how come they haven't helped you hook up with someone. Maybe you just need to get a bit more relaxed around women. Maybe an escort or two might help you to relax a bit, get a bit of experience. Either way I would get it sorted out because it will only become harder as you get older. --DamoHi 21:34, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't have that many friends. A lot of them are halfway across the continent. For the ones near me, why haven't they been hooking me up? I don't know. Relaxed around women? Maybe. As I said, I don't know "what I'm doing wrong". I am going to have to dismiss out of hand all of your future suggestions as you suggested prostitutes though. No offense. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 21:45, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Turn to Jesus. He'll fill the void. nobsSay hello to my leetle friend 21:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
And fuck you and fuck your shit. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 21:48, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
You can reject my advice if you like but, there is clearly something wrong with you, so an attitude of "I don't need to change" is bullshit. It's hard to know what that is, but you are clearly not right somewhere in your head. Either you are a wimp, and haven't tried for fear of rejection, or you are just a total social misfit. Either way I suggest you sort it out ASAP. It might sound harsh but I think there is something seriously wrong with you; someone needed to say it. DamoHi 23:59, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Let's see, I've been told to get a prostitute (no). I've been told my friends are inadequate or something for not helping me more (no). Put myself out there more aka become an extrovert and gain completely new hobbies and become a completely new person (no). Anyway, this is what I wanted to avoid. Ends the same way each time. I didn't ask for dating advice, and I'm not looking for it. I'm looking for ways to avoid dating altogether and the pain that comes with. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 01:32, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
You are talking about chemical castration. That is seriously fucked up. I would go for at least attempting to have normal human contact before I castrated myself. Seriously we all have issues, but that is insane. DamoHi 01:43, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Think I haven't tried? Fuck you. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 01:44, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────. Srsly, man, I think I'm getting to get a sense of the problem. You come onto the site, lay down some heavy stuff involving personal and intimate issues, threaten self-mutilation, and after a bunch of us offer varying degrees of heartfelt, and well-though-out advice, your response is to either put your fingers in your ears and go LALALALICAN'THEARYOUIJUSTHAVEALOTOFFEEEEELINGS or to tell people to fuck off. Neither of those are particularly attractive traits in a man. Polar Bear in the Jungle Peter Tosh > Bob Marley 01:54, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Honestly, I suspect you haven't tried hard enough. If you want a relationship of some sort you have to put yourself out of your comfort zone. Everything I have read on this thread suggests you are not prepared to do anything that might do so. Whatever. Go castrate yourself for all I care. And fuck you too. 28 year old virgin. :) DamoHi 01:50, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

You said further up "I don't want to change". This is where the problem is. You're complaining about problems with yourself & how you relate to people, but you don't seem very willing to change them. There are two ways out of this: either you work on your social skills & approach to dating to the point where you can achieve the kind of relationship you're looking for; or you learn not to care about it, genuinely, not just saying "I don't care", & accept things the way they are. Either way, it means changing your attitude & approach to socialising, relationships & yourself. It's hard work, & therapy &/or counselling would certainly help. Stop looking for some magic answer that will suddenly make everything OK, because there isn't one. €₳$£ΘĪÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 23:14, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Please, I like myself too much to complain about myself. Inbefore someone says that I think that I'm entitled to a woman, which is simply false. There's more options besides those two. "Stop looking for some magic answer that will suddenly make everything OK, because there isn't one." Well thanks captain obvious. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 01:35, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Experience talking: whatever you do, don't leap on the first person who looks at you kindly. It'll end in tears. Scream!! (talk) 01:41, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

This is a frustrating conversation to read. Your initial post was either a request for help or a request for attention; it was obviously not a request for information, because of the way it was phrased. Yet when people replied, attempting to offer help and attention both, you have responded in a generally abrasive way, with a distinct attitude of resentment that anyone could think that you (A) haven't been trying or (B) should change in some way. Yet, as Weasaloid said, those are the only possible options. Either you've just been unlucky (in which case get back out there and try again!) or else you aren't really trying, or else you are doing something wrong. There aren't any other possible options.
So, as mentioned, you can either buck up and try again, or you can change your behavior, or you can "give up" - and this last option does not actually seem like something you want to do, because you're here talking about this.
If you want to buck up and try again, because you think your behavior is fine, then you would be smart to try new venues of some kind. Some sort of social gathering is ideal; join a sports club in the community, a hobby club, or grit your teeth and venture into a bar. Incidentally, a lot of people are not big drinkers but go to bars anyway, because bars are where you meet people (and stop being a hostile goon about the prospect).
If you want to change your behavior and maybe become happier - which should be your ultimate goal - then deign to speak to a therapist. The following are NOT reasons why you should not see a therapist: you're smarter than therapists; you know about psychology so it won't "work," the therapist couldn't possibly understand you; you are so mature and well-developed that you have no issues or problems to discuss; no one can help you ever. Those reasons are extremely common, and all wrong. If your ego needs to be assuaged before you can bring yourself to admit that other people might be able to help you, then consider the therapist a mirror, where you will be able to speak to a neutral and helpful person and bounce ideas off of them in an accepting environment. Also, to forestall the other objection: please do not veer off into exaggerated humility on this score, either. Just actually think about it.
If you want to seriously give up, then you just try to ignore your need for intimacy and companionship and crush it down somehow. Rob suggested God, and that is a possible answer: finding a set of beliefs or exterior figure to substitute for a loved one. Priests, after all, have been struggling with your issue for centuries. But I don't think you've really reached this point, because as far as I can tell, those who reach it are characterized by quiet desperation and not hostile questioning.--ADtalkModerator 02:40, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

You are a hell of a lot more patient than I am AD. All I read is: "woe is me, I am doing everything right but still no-one loves me" and if anyone suggests anything its: "no, fuck you! I'm not changing for anyone, I'm not going to try anything different". To be perfectly honest I can see why he is still a virgin. --DamoHi 04:01, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Damo, could you at least not be an ass and stop reading from that script. I've said pretty much from the beginning that it's "my fault", and I don't care enough to change, though I do want to avoid these negative feelings. It is not worth my time and effort to do certain things, such as attending a bar. I've tried. I've tried a lot. I'm not doing it anymore. "Doing the same thing over and over again, getting the same result each time, and expecting a different result the next time." I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but I've lost all motivation to fix it. I'm a social loser. I always have been. I give up. I was asking a genuine question about how to help myself, but the armchair psych brigade decided instead that it was a desperate cry for dating advice instead of practicable methods by which I might be able to enjoy my life. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 05:35, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Well then give yourself a fucking uppercut and get back out there and try again. You only live once for goodness sake. In thirty years time do you really want to be a bitter and twisted sad old lonely man with no attachments and no family? Fuck that shit. If life hasn't gone your way so far don't just say "fuck it, that's the way it goes" get out there and take control of it. 7 years ago I was a afraid to leave my own room and was hearing voices and could hardly bear to live, now I am engaged with a baby on the way and a great job in my chosen field. I didn't get out of my rut by being a baby about it and quitting. Give yourself a fucking uppercut. Seriously. --DamoHi 05:44, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Is he seriously considering castrating himself? That's it. I'm for mental health check ups in addition to criminal background checks on gun purchases. nobsWould you like anchovies on your sub-prime mortgage? 06:37, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't think he's intending to castrate himself with a gun. I surely hope not. WẽãšẽĩõĩďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 13:13, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
28 yr old mentally unstable virgin with no social life? it's gotta be a sock of Ken DeMyer. nobsWould you like anchovies on your sub-prime mortgage? 17:38, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Nah, this is RationalWiki; 28 yr old mentally unstable virgin with no social life is our core demographic. ωεαşεζøίɗWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 20:14, 11 February 2013 (UTC)


I just read the beginning of this, and I have a few things to say. I'll have more once I finish. First though, you really should talk to someone. A long term or close friend would be good. A therapist would be good, do not let your previous experiences stop you. One important thing is that you need to find a therapist who works for you. It might be a bit difficult, but it's doable. I don't really know how to go about that, but looking up therapists in your area and looking specifically for ones who specialize in a particular disorder (if you have one) could be a good start. If you don't know of a specific disorder, you could see if a psychologist and see if they could offer you a specific diagnosis and recommend anyone specialized in it. You also should not consider things like chemical castration; I really hope that wasn't meant seriously, but I can't just assume that. If it is serious, you should seriously address the problem. Was this something that suddenly came up, or was it building for a long time? What triggered this particular declaration that you're "giving up?" A few other things that you might want to consider are what your options for meeting women are and ways that you could get into them. I realize that's probably something you've heard before, but actually working with and examining it can be useful. I'm not advocating the "just go out and find a girlfriend" that a lot of highly experienced and sociable guys say because they don't care or don't know how to articulate what to do. What exactly are you looking for? In a relationship, and in general. Are you looking for a relationship, or just to have sex? If it's the latter, it's probably going to be better to focus on the former; I can explain later. The biggest thing that I can say is do not give up. You could just be in a bad spot, and a situational change could help. Also, hating yourself does not help; it is sabotaging. You have to act confident, even if you have to fake it. If you need to, do something motivating to give you a feeling of confidence. If you spend time telling yourself that you're never going to find a girlfriend, you never will. You need to tell yourself that you can. ఠ_ఠ Inquisitor Sasha Ehrenstein des Sturmkrieg Sector 06:30, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

"Was this something that suddenly came up, or was it building for a long time?" Building for a long time. "What triggered this particular declaration that you're "giving up?"" Bursting of my little bubble of hope that this might work out. Brought on from several recent messages wherein I was said to be a complete jerk, autistic, a loser, and otherwise a horrible human being. One, for example, when it came up despite my best efforts that I was new to dating, she said more or less vebatim that I better have a good excuse for such a circumstance. "Are you looking for a relationship, or just to have sex?" I am not looking for merely sex. I probably could find that if I cared. Money goes a long way AFAIK. "Also, hating yourself does not help; it is sabotaging." Please. I don't hate myself. I doubt I will ever hate myself. I'm too much of a cool guy for that. "You have to act confident, even if you have to fake it." Nope. I hate faking it. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 00:12, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
I'll explain more later when I have more time, but a few important points: Being Autistic in its own is not a bad thing, provided that you are at a level where you can interact normally with other people, and that you get yourself out there. To give an example I have a friend who is still, but used to be an even bigger World War II nerd than he is now. I don't think he had Autism, but he acted in many ways like an Autistic WWII history nerd. He was the kind of person, and he actually did this, who sat around repeating Großdeutschland to himself after finding out what it was. There was a really hot Russian girl at our school who really wanted to bang him, and no one else. If I were going to make this up I'd make up a far more believable story. I'm not saying you should go for the hottest girl you can find, but that you can find a girlfriend who isn't desperate for a guy. As for the question about what you wanted, it's possible that maybe you seemed desperate or too much like you wanted sex. Maybe the girl was a jerk. I can't really pass that judgement here, but it might be worth considering. I realize that faking confidence is difficult. I'm sure you could gain it by getting girls as friends, so your interactions with them will seem more normal. I've been told that lesbian friends will give you a good evaluation of yourself. ఠ_ఠ Inquisitor Sasha Ehrenstein des Sturmkrieg Sector 03:05, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure I'm not autistic. Just some jackasses online called me that. I know the difference. I'm just stubborn. And as a matter of pride and honesty and integrity, if you suggest that I fake something, it's not happening. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 03:12, 13 February 2013 (UTC)


I'd recommend that you star drinking. There is a reason so many people drink and it is that alcohol numbs ones fear o social embarrament and also numbs ones mind against the pintless small talk of oneself and others.Th. BernhardDas Leben ist ein Prozeß, den man verliert, was man auch tut und wer man auch ist. 21:54, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Nope. Not happening. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 21:55, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
How about coke or THC? I don't think I ever kissed a girl f the first time, when I was not drunk/high...Th. BernhardDas Leben ist ein Prozeß, den man verliert, was man auch tut und wer man auch ist. 22:01, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
You know the answer. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 22:02, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Did you ever try any of it? THC helped a lot with my scial life. I became a lot more relaxed and did not feel the need to allways be right. Addendum: From what I^ve read on your talk page, you seem to have wrong expectations. EXpecting to find the perfect mate for a monogamous relationship is illusionary, if you have zero experience so far.Th. BernhardDas Leben ist ein Prozeß, den man verliert, was man auch tut und wer man auch ist. 22:06, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
I have yet to turn anyone away for that reason. I have yet to turn anyone away. I don't plan to anytime soon. It's a non-issue. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 22:16, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Become a workaholic. Go into denial; it's a good escape. Pile up cash. One day you may relax and see how pointless it all was. nobsWould you like anchovies on your sub-prime mortgage? 01:22, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
You said you don't want to join shitty clubs or pick up hobbies that don't interest you. You mentioned you are interested in astrophysics, computer stuff, etc. Why not see if a local university has any seminar series that are open to the public, in one of the areas you are interested in? That way, you might meet people who have a common interest, and if you don't, you will at least be learning about stuff that interests you. Often, university seminars have a little bit of refreshment/socializing before the formal start time of the seminar, which is a good time to meet people and chitchat. Mcnamara12 (talk) 17:30, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
I think that's a good idea. On the subject of drinking, I would recommend it as a way of opening up. It's fine as long as it doesn't become the only way that you open up. You still need to push yourself though, and you need to go where you can interact with other people. Drinking can help, but it's not magic. It still requires a bit of getting out of your comfort zone. Also, getting drunk and having sex for the first time is probably a bad idea. The girls you'll find that way are likely to have STDs and you could easily create an aversion to sex that would make it harder to have sex subsequent times. For example, if you were throwing up the next morning. ఠ_ఠ Inquisitor Sasha Ehrenstein des Sturmkrieg Sector 06:38, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
advising someone who has said they do not and does not wish to drink or do drugs to do so is pretty shit advice. AMassiveGay (talk) 18:42, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm a pretty shitty guy :DTh. BernhardDas Leben ist ein Prozeß, den man verliert, was man auch tut und wer man auch ist. 18:47, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
He's also rejected about all the advice we have given. If he wants to find a girlfriend, he's going to have to get out of his comfort zone and try one of the methods that we've recommended. It would be fine if he rejected one or two, but when he's rejected everything suggested, it's clear that part of the problem is that he isn't in any situations where he will find a girlfriend. He then needs to change his ways. Even if it's just to find other people. I did make it clear that he should not make his first time a random hookup while drunk. It would not be good to black out for the first time. ఠ_ఠ Inquisitor Sasha Ehrenstein des Sturmkrieg Sector 20:34, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
drunkenness is assured with this approach. AMassiveGay (talk) 20:55, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
I disagree strongly that advising that having a few drinks in social situations is shit advice. Alcohol is a very good social lubricant, and has helped many, many people to get together. In fact I would guess that the majority of youthful relationships are started when under the influence of alcohol. Having a few drunken pashes whilst young is part of growing up IMO. For whatever reason, EL doesn't want to go down this path (he actually doesn't want to go down any path) but that does not mean it was not well meant and sensible advice. --DamoHi 03:12, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
there is a massive difference between drinking through the course of the usual youthful experimentation and drinking because you need a crutch in social situations. I speak from experience with the former and the latter. I do not think the former applies to EL as most folk get that sort of out of their system early on in their teens and very early twenties, and the latter is very difficult to do without experience of the former. Drinking for Dutch courage in the social sphere doesn't really work if you don't have any knack for engaging in the first place. From my own experience, there is never enough alcohol to overcome such short comings, and only served to increase my sense of isolation, and eventually led to making an arse of my self with sick over my shoes. It didn't help that I was a closeted gay in a not particularly gay friendly environment (which I am assuming isn't ELs case). I rarely drink these days because I still have these problems when I do drink (I now have problematic relationships with other substances). I didn't pop my cherry until I was 23. I was shit faced at the time and was so horrific I wish I hadn't. I realise most folk have more positive experiences with alcohol, but many folk don't and if someone doesn't want to down that road, it should be respected. As the other advice that has been 'rejected' I suspect this is all advice EL has been given before, and giving this advice is a hell of a lot easier than taking it. If you are confident in social situations it might not be easy to see just how hard it is for some folk. Sadly, I have no advice for EL beyond hanging in there and keep making an effort to talk to people and take some of the advice given even if you think you have already given your best shot. Take a dance class (salsa is popular) it might be fun and you get to dance with ladies there. Might help intimacy issues.
Just one more which may or may not be relevant, try not to define yourself on a dating site or in conversation with what you don't like eg. You don't like x style of music or you didn't like y film. Its comes across as very negative. Talk about things you or they like or are interested in. AMassiveGay (talk) 15:46, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
I agree. ఠ_ఠ Inquisitor Sasha Ehrenstein des Sturmkrieg Sector 21:38, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

A blast from the past[edit]

Well, I must admit that I was not quite in the same position as you, having lost my virginity at 18 and at least having my fair share of snogging. Back in late 60s early 70s this wasn't unusually late. However, in my early 20s working overseas, then my sex life took a nosedive and I became just as desperate as you seemed to be. Yeah, I though that I was a nice guy and tried the dating services but at that age there are too many men looking for women (the demographics change as you get older), I read books on "How to pick up women" and all that kind of stuff without much success but I eventually realized that I was putting them off by being too desperate and trying too hard. It was only when I relaxed a bit and just socialized that I came to have more success on the relationship front. You need to interact with women without always seeing them as some future sexual partner. From 28 until I got married at 34 my sex life was really good and I had some great relationships with some wonderful women which often just seemed to happen quite unexpectedly. The first thing you need to do is frequent places where there are lots of women, so that means things other than computer clubs, biker conventions or even singles bars where the competition will be too great. You then need to socialize with the women, be nice to all of them no matter how plain or irritating you find them, learn to listen when they talk and show an interest by asking questions, and above all don't try to hit on them because you're obviously not very skilled in that area. Eventually you will find that you women like you, and that is the most important step. If you're a nice guy and pleasant to be with then you will probably get invites to social events, they may not be dates but it is a first step. You will probably find that your first kiss will come out of the blue, it will often be a case of being close and somehow the two of you will just click and there will be mutual close eye contact. Don't push it to fast but don't be stand-offish. If the signs are good then a simple slow touch of the lips is a good followed by compliment. As a novice you don't want to be sticking your tongue down her throat unless she takes the lead. And if she is receptive then don't be afraid to admit that you are inexperienced, ask her to teach you and say what she likes. But above all don't set your sights too high; while we all might like to go for the prettiest girl, looks can be terribly transitory. Take a look at someone like Brigitte Bardot, the ultimate sex kitten in her youth but now a wrinkled old hag. Some women who look quite plain in their youth stay the same and end up being relatively more handsome in their later years, so go for personality rather than outright beauty.

Finally, if you're not prepared to make some compromises then your chances with the opposite sex are doomed. A colleague of mine, who is incredibly clever (but doesn't have much emotional intelligence), is now in his mid 50s and single because he only ever wanted to do his own thing. He wanted to meet a smart woman but didn't want one that would make any demands or answer back. At least he lost his virginity in his 40s but that relationship only lasted for 6 months and he hasn't had another one since. Relationships take work and require give and take from both sides. Note that the advice given by everyone here generally comes from those with good sex lives and relationships. If you are a 28 year old virgin and are not prepared to take on board some of this then your really have only yourself to blame. As someone who is now in their 60s I can assure you that you need to take your chances while you can because there is only one life and if you don't want to end up in a basement writing stupid blog posts like Kendoll and not experiencing both the joy of sex and the joy of sharing then you need to wise up PDQ. Redchuck.gif ГенгисRationalWiki GOLD memberModerator 23:00, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm not the person who is unwilling to compromise in a relationship. However, I cannot dispute anything you have written. You are correct. In the end, the very idea of becoming an outgoing person who enjoys the company of lots of strangers is both lame, and disheartening, and sounds to be incredibly boring. I had hoped that online dating might change that, but seemingly not. At the moment, I will choose to live this life of happiness with background sadness at being unloved rather than change everything of who I am, to become outgoing and enjoying the company of strangers. I have no one to "blame" besides myself. PS: I don't live in my parent's basement. In fact, I live across the country and support one of my parents. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 00:07, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
To clarify, I don't have a fear of crowds. I go out when required. I don't have anything even remotely like a paralyzing fear of people or strangers. I just find the idea of hanging out with strangers at some random place for extended periods of time to be loathsome and boring. A couple of times, when I was dragged to some beer pong parties or whatever, the last time that happened I tried to be interested in the conversations going on, but I broke down and picked up a random book off a nearby bookshelf and started reading, because that was far more enjoyable. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 00:13, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
What about joining a club or two so that people you hang out with won't be strangers for much longer. Learn to dance a tango, or play contract bridge, or act in an amateur production or join a tramping club or etc etc. The possibilities are endless really. You might not get a girlfriend out of it but I doubt you will look back with regret that you did something rather than moping around about how shitty you are with people. DamoHi 00:29, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
I was moping for a split second. It's not a usual occurrence. I have lots of things to do atm. Work on my dnd chars and my future Eberron campaign. Continue to participate in reasonablefaith - that never gets old. Finish up a bunch of odds and ends at work, including side projects. Try again to read Hume. Finish that damned incrementally correct build system. Call up some friends to hang out, watch breaking bad, or some Trigun - I think I have them hooked on it. Hang out with my brother who's in town for a month and run around San Fransisco. Play some LoL, or download that other game which my friend keeps bugging me to download and play with him on some Diablo 2 clone. I'm not moping. And that's just off the top of my head. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 00:34, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
All right. If you say so. You do strike me as someone who might end up impossibly embittered and twisted when you get to about 50, but perhaps that will suit you. I must admit I don't know why you started this thread since you know everything. If you were looking for advice on how to castrate yourself you could have just gone to google. DamoHi 00:41, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm sorry for being a whiny ass. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 00:47, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Oh, and I would in a heartbeat if there was no negative health effects and it was reversible. Unfortunately, my limited education shows what I should have already known - there is no easy magic off switch for wanting a relationship and sex which doesn't negatively affect many other things. Most unfortunate. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 01:22, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Not trying too hard is extremely important. Basically, if you get desperate and start interacting with girls as a means to getting sex, you're going to turn them away from you. You have to just interact normally. To desperate people that can seem almost like it's going to be impossible; if you're desperate to the point that you will be desperate interacting with girls, than you'll need to calm down about it. Not seeming desperate is extremely important. Getting out will seem boring at first, but you need to get used to it. Really you just should try getting to know the people you're with. ఠ_ఠ Inquisitor Sasha Ehrenstein des Sturmkrieg Sector 02:33, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

"I'm sorry for being a whiny ass." Then stop. For Christ's sake, would YOU want to get into a relationship with a whiny ass? If the way you behave on this page is at all indicative of how you come off in real life, you're setting yourself up for failure. Polar Bear in the Jungle Peter Tosh > Bob Marley 02:51, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
And this is the part I don't understand, and this is the exact sentiment I get every time I talk about the issue, and this is why I am trying to give it up. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 03:10, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
And yet, here we are. Polar Bear in the Jungle Peter Tosh > Bob Marley 03:17, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
"this is the part I don't understand" <--- This is one of the major problems you need to overcome: your lack of self-awareness. Some girl calls you a jerk & a loser, & you just repeat that you're a nice person & a cool guy. I'm not saying she's necessarily right, but you need to think about why she said that; what you did or said to make her think that. + Look again at how you've responded to people in thread, & you'll see why they have got frustrated with you. People are talking about the things they find unappealing about you (in RL & in this thread) & ultimately these are things that are keeping you unhappy, but your attitude is "don't want to change; not happening". It's hard facing up to home truths but it will be better to look at yourself more critically. Because when you want something really badly (like a girlfriend) & aren't aware of how you're behaving & how others may perceive it, it's easy to be a dick or an asshole without even realising. WëäŝëïöïďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 08:38, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Online dating is too image oriented[edit]

Look, you're not going to find someone online dating. I was loathe to jump into this clusterfuck, but like other have said, not so succinctly, is that the key to having relationships is to try.

Some people have told you to try to understand why some girls think you are a jerk or a loser. They are wrong. Ignore them. If you are happy with how you are, and you're not actually physically or emotionally abusive (grating is fine), the key is to find someone who finds that ok.

You stated that you are working on a D&D campaign. Here is a link to a D&D meetup group: Stop playing with your existing friends, and go play with new random people. If you like them, be their friend outside of the D&D game. If you don't like them, don't. Please note - you are NOT DOING THESE THINGS TO FIND ROMANTIC TARGETS - JUST NEW FRIENDS. Do this for every single activity you do. Do not go to clubs. Do not do things you don't like doing. You'll find people who do things you don't like doing at those places. Now you have a lot of new friends. Do other things with these new friends. Suggest social gatherings where you can have lots of friends all do things together - if you have a bar or restaurant you like, suggest that all your friends invite lots of their friends to have a big get-together at a place.

This will expand your social circle. Eventually your social circle will touch women. If you are interested in dating those women (friends of your new friends) within 1 hour of meeting them (you are allowed one hour to pick from romantic, friend or ignore, and you must do this for every "friend of friend" female you talk to), here's what you will do. You will say "I really like doing (whatever activity we are doing) with you. I'd like to get to know you better. Would you like to have coffee with me on Saturday?"

Depending on how you look and how you come off, the romantic target will either say yes because they think of you as a target, yes because they like attention, or no.

If they say yes, they either really liked getting attention from you but don't like you that way, or they might like you that way. You don't care. Go to coffee (dutch - you are not permitted to pay for their drink.) Drink coffee. Talk about things. Here's your conversation lead in - the most interesting thing you've done since reading this. Whatever that thing is, remember it.

Here's what you're looking for during said coffee, and I hate to pull the PUA nonsense, and I'm not a PUA, and I've been happily married for over a decade, and I have 2 kids and I've never strayed, but, this part is true:

Here are signs of likely attraction:

  1. Touches self on face or hair
  2. Touches you anywhere
  3. Averts from eye contact sideways (is looking at you when you look away, looks away when you look at her)

Here are signs of likely comfort:

  1. Makes eye contact (does not shy from eye contact)
  2. Directs an open stance - faces you directly with body when sitting or standing (you)||(her)

Here are signs of likely discomfort:

  1. Looks at ground, ever
  2. Hands in lap
  3. 45 degree angle from you sitting or standing (you)|\(her)

If, after the coffee experience you still like the girl, you will then ask her out on a "real" date, regardless of the signs shown above. The above signs are a guide to what kind of "real" date you are going to ask her out on.

If you believe she is attracted to you - dinner and movie. This is safe and shows obvious interest. If you believe she is comfortable - an active activity - I was a really good swing dancer, so I did that. This is an activity that takes people outside of their comfort zone but is fun. If you believe she is uncomfortable - give her space to pick. Here's how you do this. "I really liked talking with you, and I'd like to do this again. I'm free (time time time), would you like to do something?" "Great! We could (thing, thing, thing, thing) or whatever you want. Any ideas?"

You will not do stupid friend zone games. No one dates their friends seriously. You will not do stupid PUA nonsense.

After you have done this 10 times, you are permitted to be frustrated. Until then, you aren't doing it right. After the real "date," you are on your own. Be yourself at all times. If you aren't yourself, you aren't in a relationship, someone else is in that relationship. Further, you will not care about failure, because nothing ventured, nothing gained, and it's not like I'm telling you to blow up your female friendships.

There. This took me far too long. Hipocrite (talk) 16:22, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

the above sounds reasonable but I wouldn't give up on online dating. I know plenty of folk who have positive experiences there. I'm sure you can do both. AMassiveGay (talk) 16:34, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

28 years, no kiss[edit]

So what... It was the same for me, I get my first kiss at 29 I was quite worried to spend my life "alone", but now at near 32 it looks like now I can follow both my interests (computer programming, foundational logic, table top role player games, origami and paperworks) and have a normal romantic life. I agree with your feeling that "is better to stay alone than to give up our interests". I sincerely suggest you to ignore the inconvenient feeling of "holding someone and making them feel special". Soon you will need to ignore so many more inconvenient feelings (mainly age related diseases). I agree, it is bad stuff, make us loosing precious time and it pissed us off. Still, is life, so... train yourself to stand it.

Of course, if somehow you manage to be physically (or electronically) near girls you still have some chance. But when you are near them, just pursue your interests, I was folding origami in so many different places; you could bring your laptop and play LOL in a starbux! The idea that you can do only one think at the time is delusional. I had the advantage that my poor (still) human brain can not focus on computer programming or foundational logic for more that 10h a day, leaving me some decent time to *go out*. — Unsigned, by: / talk / contribs

Is it a good idea to tell a girl that your friend is virgin?[edit]

It's possible this could have usefulness here, and it's related to the topic. I recently was talking to one of my friends immediately after a party about one of his friends who I had social concern for. I'll call him Sam. I'll call my friend Jason. I was talking to Jason about concern I had for Sam because of his behavior at another party before where he had got completely ****faced, (as he often does) walked into the apartment where the party was, and sat down in the corner when he started making Roman salutes. I got really pissed about it and wanted to give him advice because of how other people would react even less kindly than I did, and because it would be very socially sabotaging to him for anyone who saw it. After I started "explaining" this to Sam, Jason started talking to me about it and said that Sam would "explain to people that it's a Roman Salute" and that "they would understand." I think that was the alcohol talking. Jason makes more sense than that, and he said later that he plans to help Sam and didn't want me to burden myself with his problems. When I was having my conversation with Jason a long time after, he said that he plans to help Sam lose is virginity by acting as his wingman and telling girls that Sam is a virgin and that he's also "a really great guy." This sounded like a really horrible idea to me. I'm fairly sure that in order for it to work, the girl would have to really want to have sex with this guy who otherwise does not look that attractive in his actions. I've seen some hot girls come and talk to him at parties, and all he does is sit there, completely ****faced, and has intermittent eye contact. He also just replies briefly and doesn't try to continue to talk to them. ఠ_ఠ Inquisitor Sasha Ehrenstein des Sturmkrieg Sector 04:46, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

So, wait, your friend is a sauce monster with limited social skills who thinks it's funny to make a Roman Nazi salute in public. And your other friend thinks he can get this guy some tail by telling chicks he's a virgin? And you want to know if that's a bad idea? It may or may not be, but I can think of a few better ideas in this situation. Nailed a retread to my feet and prayed for better weather. 05:00, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
That's about what happened. I have no idea what he was doing with the salute though. He does know German and has an even more massive military interest than I do. At some point after the salute, I started telling him that I was going to help him find a girlfriend, and he was yelling "nein! nein!" Jason kept saying "he's good" when I said I would help him. Afterward Jason said that was because he had his own plan for getting him laid, which I said seemed extremely unlikely to work. Sam's issues aside, girls don't like guys who are trying too hard, and personally, desperate guys come off as objectifying and not infrequently patronizing toward women. ఠ_ఠ Inquisitor Sasha Ehrenstein des Sturmkrieg Sector 05:25, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
Trying to get somebody else laid is gonna pretty much always be doomed to failure (unless you actually hire a hooker) & especially so when the guy is being so anti-social. If he wants a girlfriend, he should approach the girls he is interested in, but maybe sort out a few of his issues first. What's with the Roman salute thing? Was this just a one-time drunken thing or is it a thing he regularly does & thinks is some sort of lovable eccentricity? If so, try & talk him out of it. It's a very offensive gesture to a lot of people, & "it's OK, it's just a Roman salute" really won't endear him to anybody (except Neo-Nazis). WėąṣėḷőįďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 18:37, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Don't hang out with retards. If the guy actually cares about military history (obviously, he doesn't, he's just an alcoholic dick), he'd be aware there is no such thing as a roman salute. (Winkler, Martin M. (2009). The Roman Salute: Cinema, History, Ideology. Columbus: Ohio State University Press, pg 3 [1] - "The book demonstrates that what came to be known as the Roman salute was invented on the nineteenth-century stage in long-running productions of “toga plays,” melodramas set in the Roman Empire, and that the gesture then reached the cinema screen.") Next time he does it, just hit him, hard, in the gut. Arm at side, project force through the body. Hipocrite (talk) 19:24, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Good plan--with his arm waving in the air like that, he'll be in a lousy position to block a blow to the abdomen. Nailed a retread to my feet and prayed for better weather. 21:52, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
Your suggestions remind me of this:
Jason is also interested in WWII, but he's not a drunk dick about it, and doesn't do stupid stuff. I'm not sure if the Nazi Salute is a regular thing that Sam does, or if it was just a one time thing. I'm hoping the latter. I don't think Jason though that "explaining the salute" to people was a viable solution, I think that was just drunk nonsense. It could just be a weird thing that he does to try to make himself seem cool. Making oneself seem militaristic doesn't make one seem masculine and help out socially; I have a (normal) friend who realized that he had been putting off girls by being too tactical with his personality. I agree that you can't really "get someone laid." You can introduce people, but what they do from there is entirely up to them. If they don't have the social skills, they won't be able to make anything come of your help. He's seemed like he can talk fine when I've talked to him, but it could be difficult for him to talk about things outside his interest. He seems like he has plenty of access to girls. I remember one time looking through pictures on Facebook, and I saw tons of parties and hot girls in his suit; there were girls in his bedroom. I don't think it gets any easier than that. If I wanted to get laid, I'm sure he would have. There's either an unwillingness here, or he's just lacking the social skills, which I don't think is the case. I think he's not putting himself out there and presumably puts people off other times with very strange behavior. As for the original question, to connect it with what you said, I don't think it would work. I'm pretty sure that any girl would feel objectified by such information, and it's basically asking for sex, only it's for someone else. ఠ_ఠ Inquisitor Sasha Ehrenstein des Sturmkrieg Sector 05:42, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
If you'd like a mostly accurate account of what happened one night with Sam. "Allen" in this story. For some reason, Karl is translated as Charles. Please keep in mind they are the same person. Heinrich also means Henry, so Google sometimes translates it. Also, sometimes it translates "woman" as "wife" since it's the same word in German. War Storm is ఠ_ఠ Inquisitor Sasha Ehrenstein des Sturmkrieg Sector 06:00, 21 February 2013 (UTC)


Like the Bible, this should not be interpreted literally.

First, you should not try to get laid. Trying to have sex while with a girl will set you up for failure, as you will definitely end up trying too hard. Although for someone in your position, that might be counter productive advice as it might give confirmation to a long standing pattern of just not getting involved with girls at all. The overall most important thing is you need to be confident. This is very important. Fake it if you need to. Girls will not have sex with guys who hate themselves. No one is going to lay you if you wouldn't lay yourself. You should think of this while you are out talking to girls:

I have also noticed a correlation between playing Black Ops II and having sex with blond girls and playing Imperial Guard and having sex with German girls. You might want to consider doing those. Dondrekhan also does both and has had sex with Asian girls. ఠ_ఠ Тод Зенос ан форфар фор 16:15, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
My advice is to disregard the advice & video posted above. ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 18:32, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
The fuck did I just read? TyJFBAA 19:04, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
That was supposed to be a joke. Poe's Law Facepalm ఠ_ఠ Тод Зенос ан форфар фор Actually, the confiance part is still valid. ఠ_ఠ Тод Зенос ан форфар фор 20:38, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
For fuck's sake dude. You keep repeating this same pattern (say dumb or offensive things, then claim you were joking) and honestly nobody knows whether you are actually joking or just backpedaling after saying something idiotic. It's disconcerting, & sooner or later everyone will just disregard any comment you make since there's no point responding to you if you're just going to keep coming back with "oh I was only kidding" every time. WëäŝëïöïďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 20:48, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
You're right. And it's a reason why if I am going to be sarcastic, I need to make it clear from the beginning. Thank you for your advice. ఠ_ఠ Тод Зенос ан форфар фор 20:59, 1 March 2013 (UTC) This is an internet problem of not being able to see facial expressions. It's why I made this: mw:Extension:Sarcasm. ఠ_ఠ Тод Зенос ан форфар фор 21:00, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
Or you could, you know, not say anything. TyJFBAA 21:13, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
That's also a very wise idea. I should probably stick to actual contributions for a while. ఠ_ఠ Тод Зенос ан форфар фор 21:23, 1 March 2013 (UTC)


I've noticed that you've said that you don't want to do a lot of the things recommended in our solutions. That's the problem. You're going to need to do them. Even if you don't want to, just make yourself do them. I've done the same thing. There's been a lot of things that I didn't want to do, but I forced myself to do exactly what other people do. Also, don't ever count on someone just handing you sex. A lot of people like to talk about "finding a girl" for someone; most of their ideas are terrible, and even in such events, you really can't "get someone laid." Losing your virginity isn't what you think it is a long time after you lose it, and for that reason, I don't encourage people to just randomly hook up, but it might be a good idea since it would at least be one less thing you have to do. You can do it, but not if you sit around in your basement telling people to become classical liberals and obsessively classifying yourself politically. Du musst einen Mann werden!. –Inquisitor Ehrenstein (Talk | Contribs | Mikal's ragebox) 14:10, 4 May 2013 (UTC)


See if you can get a proscription from a psychiatrist for marijuana. I think it would really help you with social anxiety problems. I remember you said you don't want to drink, and I think it would work better than alcohol. One thing I've noticed is that Autistic people who open up (not saying you're Autistic, but it's the same sort of social issue) and say the darnest things are more popular than Autistic people who don't open up and wait for the "right people to come along" before opening up. –Inquisitor Ehrenstein (Talk | Contribs | Mikal's ragebox) 14:30, 4 May 2013 (UTC) Clarification: When I mention people who openly speak their minds without filtration, I mean people who are generally within the normal range of being "odd." I don't mean that everyone who blurts out extremely weird stuff because they're in their own world. –Inquisitor Ehrenstein (Talk | Contribs | Mikal's ragebox) 14:50, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

there is something not right about you. AMassiveGay (talk) 14:39, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
Yup. Let my inspiration flow/In token lines suggesting rhythm. 14:42, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
There is something not right about me? Why? Because I want to help this guy out? –Inquisitor Ehrenstein (Talk | Contribs | Mikal's ragebox) 14:47, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
not sure your really helping. But don't feel bad, there's shit loads not right with me. AMassiveGay (talk) 14:52, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
How am I not helping? I'm not exactly "normal" either, but at least I was able to get over it. I want to be able to help this guy do the same. –Inquisitor Ehrenstein (Talk | Contribs | Mikal's ragebox) 14:54, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
Since he stopped responding to new comments on this page two & a half months ago, I don't think it's particularly helpful that you keep coming back to it. If he wants further advice, he would probably ask for it. WėąṣėḷőįďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 19:13, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
I may like mocking empty air, but this is too sad for me to snark at. Welcome to the real world, amigos. If you see this, try laughing more. That helps. Sorry if I sound inconsiderate.

--At (talk) 18:16, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Ganja may be more likely to turn you into your anima rather than help you to find a detachable imitation in the form of someone else. Maybe it's just me. Some more suggestions:

  • Purchase wife from Ukraine?
  • Try gay or trans.
  • Not much masturbating seems to lower libido, don't use it to lose it.
  • New location.
  • As always, lower expectation. Think fatter, older, dumber, poorer, unhealthier, gayer, needing residence and/or citizenship. Go where the desperate people go. Check the people pound. Find one who has unpopular traits that you don't find repulsive. Who do you want anyway?

~ Lumenos (talk) 07:16, 9 May 2013 (UTC)