Talk:Asexual exclusionism

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Had to deal

I had to deal with some vicious words said to me, some not outlined in this article yet. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 05:35, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Mmmm I get that it's well-intentioned to draw comparisons between ace exclusionists (axes? Can we call them "axes" for short?) to TERF and anti-lesbian rhetoric, but I feel this risks diverting the topic from ace discourse and makes aces feel sidelined, and the feeling of being sidelined is the exact issue aces deal with. Can we just say it's a framework of bigotry (disgust, prejudice, denial) that's the problem, not implying their hatred stems from other subjects? --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 07:21, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

I thought that TERFs created ace exclusionism? But if I'm wrong, or if I worded stuff badly, please feel free to adjust it. I'm ace myself and my understanding of the discourse is limited because I mostly try to hide from it. (It stresses me out big time.)

I really like the additions you made earlier. Please feel free to expand and rework however you see fit. This article would definitely benefit from having multiple experienced writers. Luna Rose ^{Say hi} 22:30, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

I want to believe that the axes are just TERFs projecting their hatred and frustration on aces, but I think anti-ace attitudes stem from a primal instinct of fear and loathing those that are deemed "unworthy", but in aces' case, not "victimized" enough so their difficulties don't matter. But this can probably go both ways, as some axes also become TERFs or axes are closeted TERFs. But I fear the idea that aces are just lonely incels is attractive to nonTERFs, as you see that attitude manifests, but in milder forms among the ignorant and across society, such as innocent questions like "how can you not like sex if you never tried it" or "you are just a late bloomer, and you haven't found the right person". Our own education already assumes people become sexual when they mature, and conversations on relationships and sexuality are alien. Aces are pretty unique in that they can extremely easily pass as straight to any onlooker and there aren't laws outright criminalizing not having sex, unlike gays, and society in some areas view abstinence from sex as a virtue, like something extremely appropriate for high religious figures.

I'm ace too and probably figured that out before I realized a label exists, and I've seen passing mention in a psychology textbook of "no preference for sex" as a minority answer. I've explored AVEN, endured some terrible insults and well intentioned invalidation, felt "broken", feel horribly misunderstood and aliennated by everyone, ended up not understanding tons of sexual euphenisms (like jokes about cream on cake totally flew over my head) until very late teens and early adulthood Most people think sex is a reward and fun but I learned it to be a contentious and frustrating obstacle in a relationship. I can't say those attitudes stem from transphobia from my experience.

Heck, the idea that having sex is a measure of worth still permeates constantly. I had to tell off some users that banned wandals with the reasoning that wandals "can't get laid". I responded with "sex is overrated" but I probably should've told that I was hurt even if jab is coming at someone who probably isn't ace. I think I tried telling people after that to please not use "can't get laid" as an insult because you're invariably hurting aces, but I don't know if that resonated.--It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 23:19, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

I definitely see your point. It sounds like you have a lot of experience in this area. What do you think would be the best way to write about the TERF connection while avoiding minimizing the fact that aphobia goes beyond TERFs?

Ah, the late bloomer rationale. My mom clung to that for over a year, even though I'm (probably) aro and have never had a crush or a partner. Also, cream on cake jokes exist? And they're not about food? What? Luna Rose ^{Say hi} 19:26, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

I think we can mention how the rhetoric does mirror TERF rhetoric, point out the similarities, but we note that those similarities don't mean one is derived from the other but that they are derived from the same tenets of bigotry: primal instincts, fear and loathing of the unknown, disrespect and turtling inside for different attitudes, egocentrism, overestimating accuracy of judgement, willful ignorance from cockiness, and maybe more. Remember, aces experience insults unique to their identity, both unintentional and intentional, usually outright denial inappropriate sexual IDing (hell fandom people label kid friendly characters a sexual orientation rather than a more accurate romantic orientation, and they assume a character has such attraction in the first place), their struggles are completely trivialized (which has a grain of truth), or denigrate us because we simply not experience sexual attraction and not necessarily that we don't want sex at all. Furthermore, this denigration and marginalizationn comes from the LGBT community itself, which is pretty unique to aces. So, we should talk about that to help encourage that axe attitudes are not like a subset of TERF or anti gay, but their own branch under the bigotry against sexual minorities.

I had my mom tell me about late bloomer as well as even my general physician, but they're very well intentioned, so it's not hurtful. I do have hopes they learn about the ace identity but that takes time, and it's not a huge issue for me or anyone I loved that I didn't have a boyfriend or girlfriend my entire school career, didn't even know or cared how to masturbate. And yeah, cream on cake is a euphenism for ejaculation on a loved one or something; generally any sort of thick white liquid usually is a target for ejaculate euphenisms or whatever. I don't understand what's the deal either. And to this day, I don't know what's the deal behind "69" and never bothered to research. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 20:37, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Article's Scope seems a bit too limited

I feel like the article, as currently written, is a bit too narrow in scope and seems to mostly be focused on harassment experienced by a segment of the Tumblr Asexual community. That's not to say that this sort of behaviour doesn't occur outside of Tumblr, just that what is currently covered by the article is mostly limited to Tumblr (All but two of the citations are to Tumblr posts). I think more examples of Asexual exclusion within LGBTQ+ and Feminist discourse and spaces are needed.

I feel that a section regarding discussions within the LGBTQ community about where and how asexuals fit into the larger LGBTQ community, and where such discussions shift from productive to exclusionary, would probably also be a worthwhile addition. ^{— Unsigned, by: KingK / talk / contribs}

Article probably needs a rewrite

The article is poorly written, to put it bluntly. As KingK pointed out above, nearly all the sources are Tumblr posts. It massively overstates the case ("exclusionists have destroyed the ace community"), and fails to accurately summarize the rhetoric of the ideology the article is about.

Much of the content is poorly justified. There's a list of bullying tactics here that merely cites a tumblr post where said thing happened. A random person on tumblr saying "kys aces" isn't really proof that this is a common enough practice to be worthy of note. These are the tactics of bullies and trolls, and aren't something unique to exclusionists. If you want show examples of notable exclusionists (as in: public figures and not Tumblr blogs) doing these things, I think that would be a more worthwhile paragraph in the article. It claims FBI involvement with ace bullying cases, with a private twitter account as the source. At the very least you would need a news article to include this sort of claim, a screenshot (even if it wasn't a private account) isn't sufficient proof for this.

The comparisons to TERFism are pretty questionable and substantiated (again) with a Tumblr post (written in size 8 font) of what looks like a feud between two people. There's a long reply with one of these "Replace x word with y and see how EERILY SIMILAR they are" when you can do this sort of thing with almost anything if you try hard enough. The idea that exclusionists have converted to TERFs doesnt really prove anything about an "aphobe to TERF pipeline" because again, these are just random people on Tumblr. The paragraph about "anti autism" sentiments is completely silly and seemingly based on the extremely trivial argument over whether "a-spec" is a term referring to autism.

The rhetoric/response section is okay at some points, but contains arguments that I, someone who spent far too much time on tumblr and spent half my teenage years engaging in ace discourse, have never heard argued before ("Asexuals dating non-asexual people is inherently abusive!" sounds like it stemmed from a troll, and likely isnt worth responding to here). Furthermore, it misses probably the biggest and most reasonable arguments against ace inclusion: 1) "Aces don't experience systematic oppression on any major scale, and therefore " (to dispute this, there needs to be evidence that anti-ace discrimination is systematic), and 2) "Asexuals can be cishet, experiencing cis and straight privilege. The LGBT community is for people who are same gender attracted or trans"

This article feels much less like a critical examination of exclusionism, and more like beating down a strawman. I don't think the idea that "Asexuality is not an inherently LGBT identity" can really be dismissed outright the way it is here. Exclusionism might make people upset, but it's much more up in the air than thoroughly debunked concepts like TERFism given how divided the community is on this issue generally speaking. Claiming that asexuality is not a LGBT identity is far from TERF rhetoric like "transgenderism is a threat to womanhood itself"; and it is not necessarially hostile to asexuality at all. On the main asexuality page here, research is cited that shows a great deal of a surveyed asexual community didn't even consider *themselves* LGBT. Ultimately, this is a topic worthy of a look from both sides, even if the article is critical of anti-ace bullying that stems from exclusionist communities. HailFall (talk) 23:24, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

I think the sources should be way better than tumblr posts and there's a lot of hyperbole, but I think the concept is real and that those tumblr posts exist seems to signify a problem? I think instances of the thing happening need to be reworked but since asexuals are generally under the radar, finding news that'll actually document these goings is going to be challenging. I think the argument deemed as the most reasonable argument against ace inclusion is still a very weak one. It boils down to what you think LGBT+ membership is. I don't think it's about the blood you have to pay for membership. Oppression is a big undercurrent but it shouldn't be the only thing the community should center itself. A lot of arguments do mirror bi erasure for that reason, and a lot of arguments also mirror the trans exclusion back then. Aces are still horribly misunderstood and are mistreated, and they add to the diversity of a community I believe should celebrate diversity. Maybe that's just me. but Also "aces can be cishet" is not a solid argument. They have some privilege but not cis or straight privilege. If LGBT is just for same-gender attracted or trans, what about enbies? What about bisexual? Pan? That's simply not true, and that's not a reasonable argument at all. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 00:08, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

As I said before: There is potentially an argument to discuss here, but without proper citations and printed examples of the behavior being described or of people discussing this concept, we can't even establish what arguments are being made. We need sources like news articles, academic research or studies, or published pieces of writing sharing accounts of this type of discrimination to make a proper article. I'd suggest looking into LGBTQ+ publications for articles that bring up the issue or published works by prominent members of the asexual community. ^{— Unsigned, by: KingK / talk / contribs} 17:45, 22 Sept 2021 (UTC)

I agree here. All I have are anecdote unfortunately, and I don't know any good resources that do compile what's been said, because asexuals are usually under radar. AVEN does probably have more than just a few people who felt misunderstood or were even harmed for their orientation. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 22:28, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

About Tumblr references

These sound too anecdotal to me. Do we really need them? GeeJayK (talk) 00:15, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Oh, nevermind me, just saw the posts above mine. GeeJayK (talk) 00:16, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

In short, they are anecdotal, but asexuals are kind of misunderstood and relatively less known as an orientation (hence the term "LGBTQIA" sometimes raises eyebrows and is a subject of mocking by conservatives, iirc) so it's going to be challenging to find some instances of it? I've experienced arguments why I should be excluded (I want to be included; some aces don't consider themselves LGBT but I like the identity myself) as well as denigration of my orientation before, and I've seen my share of nasty remarks about "playing hard to get", to put it nicely. It's rather ugly. I do hope you can try to take my word for it. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 00:27, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Would you mind if I move it to the draft space? I know this is an important subject to you, and I don't want to do it without your consent. GeeJayK (talk) 01:17, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Holy shit

The examples you guys cite of this kind of shit happening are absolutely vile, the kind of shit you'd expect to see on 4chan, not Tumblr; How can these people wholeheartedly believe they're protecting autistic and the LGBTQ+ communities when they'll resort to the same tactics used to oppress those communities every chance they get? TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan (talk) 19:42, 3 June 2024 (UTC)