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User talk:GeeJayK

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Unless it's blaking or very disruptive, please, do not revert wandalism on my talk page. GeeJayK (talk) 13:48, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

New logo large.png Welcome to RationalWiki, GeeJayK!

Check out our guide for newcomers and our community standards!

Tell us how you found RationalWiki here!

If you are interested in contributing:

Bongolian (talk) 21:06, 22 March 2018 (UTC)


Because of your edits to and time on the wiki, Autopatrolled has been added to your user rights. This lets you bypass most of the abuse filters, bypass the CAPTCHA, and edit more frequently. If you have questions, bleat ask away.

We hope you enjoy your newfound ᴘᴏᴡᴇʀ — and these external tools:

Thanks! GeeJayK (talk) 07:33, 29 January 2021 (UTC)


Because of your edits to and time on the wiki, wizard Sysop has been added to your user rights. Feel free to let your newfound ᴘᴏᴡᴇʀ course through your veins. Once the high wears off, see RationalWiki:Sysop guide for more information. If you have questions, bleat ask away. Christopher (talk) 15:30, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! GeeJayK (talk) 15:32, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Gratz on getting sysopship. Techpriest (I am Alpharius! / Pencil.png / Tux icon.png / Shield.png) 15:43, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Thanks! GeeJayK (talk) 15:44, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Congratulations! --Goatspeed. In science we trust🇺🇸CircularREmail2.gifasoning🇺🇸See my experiments 18:46, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
Thanks! I guess it's not bad for someone who almost got banned only two weeks ago... GeeJayK (talk) 20:57, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

About portuguese[edit]

Hey! I've seen you had done some changes to my Canard article in portuguese. Are you a native portuguese speaker? Kaikecarlos (talk) 12:21, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes, ptbr. I've also edited the Draft:Libertarianismo Cultural article. GeeJayK (talk) 12:36, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
I have a Discord with 10 members interessed in translating, it would be good if you are interessed in joining Kaikecarlos (talk) 12:39, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
Sure. I won't be able to contribute a lot because I have many projects that are overdued, both here and IRL, but I'll do my best. Send me an email if you don't want to post your Discord account here. GeeJayK (talk) 12:43, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
Desculpem cair de pára-quedas... olá, gente fixe :-) Tuga aqui, disponível para ajudar! UninspiringNickname (talk) 18:20, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
@UninspiringNickname I'm extra, extra busy right now, but I'll tell people on discord. GeeJayK (talk) 19:32, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Wait, you guys are Brazilians?[edit]

That's cool!

And kudos to you guys and other Portuguese speakers who have translated external links and edited Portuguese-language articles. I've been telling folks on this site for nearly two years that I would do that, but I've never gotten around to actually doing it. Instead, I mostly lurk on this site, and I will occasionally fix spelling and syntax mistakes. Sometimes, I will also add content to WIGO pages and missing citations wherever needed. G Man (talk) 18:59, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, there are some Portuguese-speaking users here. Glad to see another one. So far the project is on-hold, but who knows, we'll finish it. GeeJayK (talk) 19:13, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Friendly inquiry[edit]

So you're to the right of Nancy, but you support universal healthcare. Are you slightly to the right, and what issues push you further to the right than her? I just thought it was interesting, because I don't consider my political positions to be too terribly different from Nancy Pelosi (except for universal healthcare, ironically enough, which I'm against). Forgive me if universal healthcare is a moderate or centrist position in Brazil, I know next to nothing about Brazilian politics except that Bolsonaro = Brazillian Trump. IveBeenFrank (talk) 20:50, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Well, even Friedrich Hayek kinda in fact supported universal healthcare. I supported the Bismarckian model (kinda what they have on Germany and Switzerland), not the Beveridgean model we have here in Brazil (basically the same as in UK, though private healthcare here is also prominent). As for your question, changing it here is probably a right-wing (not even center-right), just like in UK, where Thacther failed to reform it. We had a shitstorm about it a few months ago here too. Another reason to reject the Beveridgean healthcare: if it doesn't work, its's almost impossible to get rid of it. GeeJayK (talk) 20:57, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Crow food[edit]

Rainbow trout transparent.png Whack!
You've been whacked with a wet trout.

Don't take this too seriously. Somebody just wants to let you know you did something silly.

Don't shoot until they shoot. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 22:45, 7 February 2021 (UTC)


Gonna do a couple of passes through it to straighten out some grammar and idiom. OK? I've never heard of the guy; was he any relation to Maggie Thatcher nee Roberts? Scream!! (talk) 23:30, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

No problem, thanks, a lot. Answering your question, I don't think so. He's just the son of a rich guy. GeeJayK (talk) 23:32, 28 February 2021 (UTC)
OK Scream!! (talk) 23:37, 28 February 2021 (UTC)


The version of "Health at every size" that you restored has drawn criticism for years. It is poorly-sourced, out-of-date, and not a balanced view of the current scientific understanding of obesity. Plus it contains fat-shaming and juvenile jokes. QuietLuna and myself worked to improve the article. The new version stood for over a year until Cristopher unilaterally decided to restore the old version. That reversion stated "If anyone objects then they can revert me and take it to the talk page." As one of the authors of the new version, I naturally objected. So I restored the old version, per Christopher's edit comment, and was in the process of writing a talk comment. I don't appreciate being threatened with a block for restoring a version that had stood for over a year, when it's apparently fine for Christopher to unilaterally bin a version they don't like. Splainer (talk) 06:08, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

I said I was going to block you because I asked you three times to take it to the talk page. Other sysops would've blocked you after the first warning. Many other users agreed with his move, so it isn't unilaterally, like you said. You've already posted on the talk page. Now, let's wait until there are more answers. I recommend to tell Christopher that you don't like his edit too. GeeJayK (talk) 06:12, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
His edit was a reversion to an out-dated, bigoted, and poorly-sourced attack piece. What the fuck? Oxyaena Harass 06:22, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

As someone more familiar with the mathematical elements of economics...[edit]

What are you thoughts on this video essay? To lay out my position, I think its one of the most pragmatic approaches to socialism, anti-captialism, and solving class conflict that I've seen, and to a large extent mirrors many of my own opinions on how to empower organized labour, minus the strict Marxism of course. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 19:24, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

I'll watch it. GeeJayK (talk) 19:29, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie I’m not going to pretend here to be an expert on Marx nor in co-ops, but even though I’m dissatisfied with what I wrote here I’m doing my best.
My main problem with Marx is, ironically, my main problem with Smith, Ricardo, Mill and other liberal economists. They were right about many things… in the XIX century (or, in Smith’s case, XVIII). It’s hard to compare capitalism in the twenty-first century with its terrible counterpart in the XIXth century. For instance, as the guy on the video correctly acknowledges, that Marx believes there’s an ongoing conflict between labor and capital. Right now, however, I believe there’s more of a partnership between the two groups, even if conflicts often arise. Of course there’s still many forms of exploitations going on, but both sides can profit and, I believe, the best way to resolve it is to give everyone a more equal start, similar to what John Rawls believed.
Regarding the video, my main problem is that these worker co-ops make me believe that he wants to abolish property rights. As someone with a more utilitarianist view on ethics, I believe that supporting property rights because of some form of natural law is a mistake. But I do believe that property rights are important to achieve prosperity as they provide important incentives. Yeah, these co-ops might be working (I’d have to check). But in a global scale? I think that’s quite harder since, as he realizes in the Mondragon’s case, many of its problems arise by the fact that they are competing in a global market, and I believe (Ithe advantages that Mondragon provides to its workers also result at least to some extent in economic inefficacy.
And if all the companies adopt a similar model as Mondragon? There would still be a few problems. First, supposing these co-ops are less efficient that your average private company, that might also mean that the total output would be smaller, which can results in a smaller production, higher prices, etc (though you can argue that the general welfare would still be higher since the production would be more well distributed, it’s impossible to say that a priori). This possible inefficiency might even result in more environmental problems; I can elaborate that if you want to. A second problem: If some people decide to work in the old way, would they be allowed to create a private firm? What would happen after that is just speculation.
A more sociological problem I see is the Iron law of oligarchy. I believe these co-ops might turn into oligarchies very easily, becomes the very thing they wanted to destroy, though that’s just a speculation, never seen anything about it. I think his criticism on Mondragon might be in part related to that.
I don’t think these co-ops growing as fast as he suggests (and I think he also ignore those who fail). Most of the studies he linked doesn’t seem to have that many citations even if they aren’t even that recent (most of them use data from 15 years ago or more). I’m not saying these studies are bad as I haven’t read any of them, just that this might be a sign that their conclusions and/or research methods weren’t well accepted, and if these growth was so tremendous I think we would see these companies more often in the news, like we see Uber, Amazon, Alphabet and Tesla just to name a few companies that were created in the last 30 years and are among the most valuable in the world. In the Italian case, if these coops worked so well, why haven't wee heard about them getting huge and competing with the largest Italian companies? And why did the Italian people let them be destroyed by the government without fighting back in the elections? Most of the neoliberal reforms and privatizations in Italy were made by Massimo D'Alema. We do know the good and the bad about these reforms. What is the impact of these co-ops in the Italian economy as a whole?
I’m not sure if he supports these policies because of his own ethical and deontological convictions. If he does, it would be fine to support these policies even if that means sacrificing some economic efficiency and even welfare. But how much are we willing to sacrifice?
One last point I’d like to make (and here I’ll unfortunately have to mention Hayek) is that when he criticizes liberals, saying that they cannot think of anything that isn’t remotely similar to what we have today he falls into an epistemological problem that is called “rationalism constructivism”. It is not easy to create an ideal model of world and foresee all the pitfalls, challenges and flaws that this model has. Co-ops exist since utopic socialists like Owen tried them. What are the reasons why society didn’t evolve the way he wanted to? Probably the fact that authorities didn’t want to is a reason. But maybe there’s more than this. Despite some government activity against them, they are still allowed to exist, and if there’s only a handful of successful exemples around the world then maybe that’s not the best model. As I said before, I don't believe capitalism is fairier than other systems and I'll support another one if it's more efficient, but if co-ops are to substitute capitalism, I believe they are should compete with each other and (you won’t like it) let the consumers decide which one they prefer.
P.S..: I know I didn’t direct explain what is perhaps the most pivotal point of my post: why I think property rights are so important to economic growth. That’s because that would require an even longer post than this one, you can check Why Nations Fail, by Daron Acemoglu if you want to know more. I wanted to write a lot more, I didn't adress his point on democracy, for instance, but this post is already overly long, and I don't think it's even that good to begin with. GeeJayK (talk) 21:06, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
I did not mean to imply you were an expert, as my opinion was that you were a layman that was better versed in the subject than I in certain areas. As for proerty, I would suspect the author would prefer to abolish Private Property and replace it with "Personal/Public property" system most of the left advocates for, though that assumption is slightly speculative. Finally, unless I missed something, the video author repeatedly stresses that Co-ops are not a magic bullet solution, (and to criticize Mondragon being used as the go to "co-ops work" example), but that he thinks they're a step in the right direction. Essentially, to go back to why I asked you to begin with, I wanted your informed opinion on this person's opinion, something I occasionally do when I see my own opinions reflected back at me to a certain degree, and/or someone says something I think indicates interesting opinions on topics I'm interested in. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 23:25, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
To the last point specifically, this is where myself and the rest of the left suffer from severe disagreements. I believe we should advocate for cautious, methodological changes, so as to phase out capitalism (I also define capitalism differently, which I may have mentioned on Discord a few times) without replacing it with something worse, a cold, hard, and practical approach that is at odds with my more ideologically driven allies on the left. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 23:38, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Could you please do one little thing for me?[edit]

Could you please move the page Hélio Couto to Hélio Couto (português)? I don't think it's right for articles in languages other than English to have a title that's just somebody's name. I think that's misleading. I would move it myself but I cannot produce the character ê on my Taiwanese keyboard. Thank you. Spud (talk) 13:03, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

@Spud Done. May I ask you a stupid question? You said you can't produce the character ê on your keyboard, but you used it twice on your post here. How did you do it then? GeeJayK (talk) 19:54, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
Also, I think the article should be deleted. I've never heard of this guy. There are many crooks selling this kind of garbage in the Brazilian Internet, and I don't think he's relevant enough. The article about him in the Portuguese Wikipedia was deleted by WP:PRODWikipedia once and WP:CSDWikipedia twice. Couldn't find anything about him in any major Brazilian news website either. GeeJayK (talk) 20:09, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
That's not a stupid question at all and I'm ;perfectly happy to answer it. When you edit an article, you can click on "Special characters" at the top of the editing box. That allows you to easily add versions of letters in the Roman alphabet not commonly used in English (like ê, ç, ň, ø and ü) as well as Greek, Cyrillic, Arabic and Hebrew letters, characters used to write several Asian languages, International Phonetic Alphabet symbols and other symbols not found on American keyboards (¡, ¿, €, £, ♠, ♣, ♥, ♦). When you move a page, however, you don't have access to Special characters. Then you're limited to what you can produce with your keyboard. So I cannot add (português), (français) or (español) to any page by moving it.
Based on what you've said about Hélio Couto, I'm going to nominate the page for deletion. I will, of course, mention you in the reason for deletion. Spud (talk) 05:43, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Can't you copy-paste for page moves? It seems like the simplest solution: produce or find the text, copy, go to the page move view, and just paste it in. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 11:02, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Congratulations ...[edit]

... would seem to be in order. Wishing you and your wife much happiness. Scream!! (talk) 18:18, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! GeeJayK (talk) 15:57, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Block of User:Derek Chauvin[edit]

I was going to find an admin to block User:Derek Chauvin, but then I noticed that you beat me to it. Any chance that I can have sysop please? Thanks. Harry Potter (talk) 16:19, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Granted. GeeJayK (talk) 16:23, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
Cool, thanks. :) Harry Potter (talk) 16:26, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Opinion on Hume’s economics[edit]

David Hume and Adam Smith were close friends and, as far as I know, influenced eachothers’ economic thought. Since you appear to be the resident economist, I’ll ask you: what’s your opinion on David Hume’s economics? LeucippusTalk 00:34, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

@Leucippus thanks for the question. I assume you don't want a lecture, just my opinion on Hume, right? So, I don't think I need to explain to you what were Hume's views on money, fiscal policy, and stuff like that. I’ll also say that I'm in fact more familiar with his works on philosophy than on economics.
My opinion on Hume (and indeed, most of the economists of his time) is that he was amazing, but today his ideas are of limited use. Indeed, he was a pioneer, and we owe a lot to him (he was, for instance, one of the major influences of the Nobel Prize winner Robert Lucas), but he was writing more than 250 years ago. A different world, where not only the economy, but science and the available methods were different. By that time, people used a very subjective approach, and most of their conclusions came from their perception of the world around them (in Hume's case, the impoverished Scotland). Many, probably most of his arguments are still valid, like the fact that money in the short run can can boost the economy, but in the long run you’ll just have higher prices but not an increase in the output but the way he puts it is unacceptable for us as he does not provide evidence as we know it.
Reading classical economists like Hume or Adam Smith is, in my opinion, akin to read Darwin or Mendel. It’s important for a historical perspective but you’ll learn a lot more reading the new authors. Of couse, economics is more abstract than biology, so their works tend to age better, but you’ll learn a lot more reading a modern manual than reading stuff written when the US was still a British Colony. Does that mean it’s useless to read Hume? When it comes to economics I wouldn’t say so for two reasons. 1, History of Economic Thought is a very important subject. 2 He can still give you great insights (again, his ideas on money are still dominant after all this time, so newer economists still borrow a lot from him. That being said, you need to be really good in order to reach this level.
TL;DR: Hume was one of the greatest minds of his time, not only on economics. But on this subject I think he's outdated, not because he's wrong, but because he came to his conclusions in a way that we can't accept anymore. People will still remember him when any of my favorite economists today are forgotten, but he’s far more important on a historical perspective than as a theoretical reference, even if many of his ideas are still right as far as we know. Maybe as a historian and a philosopher that's not truth as these philosophy is overall even more abstract and tends to age a lot better, but that's how I see him as an economist. GeeJayK (talk) 01:10, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for the detailed response. I agree that the main limitation of Hume’s work is historical i.e. economics was in its infancy during Hume’s time, and Hume couldn’t benefit from the sophisticated mathematical tools and empirical methodology that we have today. LeucippusTalk 12:07, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Board nomination[edit]

You've been nominated to the RationalMedia Foundation election. Please accept or decline; if you accept, you may wish to campaign. Bongolian (talk) 18:45, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Sounds fun. Thanks a lot, I'll consider it. GeeJayK (talk) 12:47, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
Please do. Spud (talk) 13:00, 12 July 2021 (UTC)


Here's the banner for you

Lopokova and Keynes 1920s cropped.jpg
This user is a Capitalist who supports extensive government regulation.

CorUsar (chat) 21:55, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

@CorruptUser thanks, but despite considering myself a New KeynesianWikipedia I tend to disagree with the "extensive" word in the userbox.

If you don't know the difference between New Keynesians, Neo-Keynesians and (arghh) Post-Keynesian garbage I'd recommend the The Penguin History of Economics. I think they advertised the book with this slogan . GeeJayK (talk) 20:54, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Isn't Post-Keynesian just Milton Friedman? I could remove "extensive" if you want though. CorUsar (chat) 21:01, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
I think Milton Friedman's ghost will haunt you this night... Next time call him a Marxist, I honestly believe he holds far more respect for them. Post-Keynesian economics is MMT bullshit and a few other sections like "Circuitism" which I never got really into. I can respect a few of their modern proponents, like Thomas Palley, but it's overall rubbish. Don't worry about changing the userbox, it would be unfair with the other users that added it on their page, they might agree with the "extensive". GeeJayK (talk) 21:20, 14 July 2021 (UTC)