User talk:GeeJayK

Archives for this talk page:

<1>, <2>

, (new)

What is going on? World Blogs Clogs Elections The Bar (talk) (talk) (talk) (talk) (hic) Welcome to RationalWiki, GeeJayK! Check out our guide for newcomers and our community standards! Tell us how you found RationalWiki here! If you are interested in contributing: Read what our articles are intended to be Check out the to-do list See our help page and Wikipedia's formatting cheatsheet If writing a new article, consider writing up a draft And most importantly: Pull up a goat and have some fun!

Bongolian (talk) 21:06, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Discord server

Hey, uh, can someone please let me back into the Discord server? I'm still not even sure why I was thrown out for making a self-deprecating joke about "Luigifan moments". I also suspect that the Discord server would be better than talk pages for discussing ref note ideas or page disputes, since I don't seem to get much feedback on talk pages (and why was the review board deleted, anyways…?) --Luigifan18 (talk) 20:54, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

As I remember, a moderator on Discord banned you for spamming things up with lots of pleading and comments that beat the dead horse of you adding refs and "mini-essays" to articles. The stuff you took to the Discord when you'd just been banned for months from RationalWiki, to continue there instead. You could appeal to Techpriest or to LeftyGreenMario (who banned you), but I think they'll keep you banned if your no. 1 idea for returning to the Discord is to do more of what got you banned there. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 19:20, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

No, what I had in mind was proposing ideas and asking for feedback. --Luigifan18 (talk) 20:21, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

See response on RW talk:Discord. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 21:28, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

@Luigifan18 You should probably talk to @Techpriest as she runs the server. But what concerns me the most is that you still want to discuss ref notes when you cannot post them. Please, understand that a topic ban means that you're not allowed to contribute about a certain subject and/or in a certain way. Period. Talk pages and Discord discussion will not allow you to cheat on the topic ban. GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 11:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I might have given him that impression. I thought he'd still be able to comment on talk pages about that stuff. Chillpilled (talk) 12:35, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

That was also the impression I was under — that I could use talk pages, Discord, or some sort of review board to propose ideas for ref notes that you guys could add if you liked them. (And I didn't go to Techpriest first because I was under the impression that I'd severely annoyed them and they wouldn't be sympathetic.) --Luigifan18 (talk) 14:42, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Nobody has time to manage a "review board" for a single editor. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 15:02, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

You

Have a bottle of Champagne for what you did, buddy! Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 11:17, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, man. I was actually expecting some backlash, but I'm glad that people seem to think I did the right thing. GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 11:40, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I haven't been involved in the whole thing and have just passively been observing, but from the looks of things, there really wasn't much of a choice left. Wonder where he'll be in 5-10 years. IntrepidSkeptic (talk) 11:52, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

For your comments about "ghetto culture" and "redneck culture"

Smash!

You've been squished by a whale!
Don't take this too seriously. Someone just wants to let you know you did something really silly.

WTF? You're endorsing arguments that are at best Hillbilly Elegy and at worst The Bell Curve. And no, coming from someone who grew up in one of the "redneck" areas mocking poor white people does not make your statements any less problematic. Plutocow (talk) 20:19, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

lmao So, cultural aspects that argue that education is not important aren't a relevant factor of education? I don't even know the first book and I've never read the second one, never will, but I doubt that their main argument is similar to mine. And yes, education does matter, and can be affected by cultural factors. GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 21:31, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Here's something you seemingly don't know given that you are making these stupid arguments: in the United States, schools are primarily funded by property taxes. I should know, the only reason why I was able to get a decent high school education was because as my hometown was too small to have its own school district I went to one in a nearby town that was essentially a high income (relative to the rest of my area) gated community. If I was born in the next town over, which was less than two miles from where I lived, I would have instead went to a school that had so low of a budget that they had to turn the gymnasium into five classrooms. The reason why your comment is ignorant and dare I say even bigoted is because it's ignoring that the school system is incredibly segregated and the problems I mentioned are even worse in the poor inner-city schools, where black students are disproportionately enrolled in the worst-funded schools. I'm willing to cut you some slack as, since you're not in the U.S., you might not know all of this. But there's a reason why using "ghetto culture" to explain poverty is basically seen as a dog whistle for the n word. Plutocow (talk) 21:50, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't fucking care about your life or where you studied, this is utterly irrelevant, and as I said, systemic racism is the most important cause of of the race gap (just read my post, I find ironically that you simply ignored this part). I did say that it was possible that "Ghetto Culture" wasn't a main cause as well on the post. But my main point was, cultures that ignore education lag behind. Nothing on your post answers to that. GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 21:55, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

"Cultures that ignore education" isn't something you can give any data on, it's just racism/classism. It's not just a problem for black people, it's also a huge problem for poor whites across Appalachia and the south, poor Hispanics in the southwest, and indigenous people throughout the country. Unless you can find me a source that says the poor education is because of "culture" and not because of, you know, segregation, then it's safe to ignore what you say. You're supposed to be the economics expert here. Plutocow (talk) 22:02, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok, you are being dishonest now. Of course it isn't a problem just for black people! This was also on my post. Also, how did a post that claims that systemic racism is the main reason of the race gap denies that segregation is still an issue? Your post is a huge, incredibly stupid, strawman. GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 22:06, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not prejudiced, but... "I know systemic racism is a huge problem and all, but don't you think a little bit of the problem is due to their ni I mean "ghetto culture"? I mean, I'm bigoted against poor white people too so that makes it okay!" You're the one who refuses to provide a single source that "culture" is a part of the equation. Plutocow (talk) 22:12, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ You can read "A Culture of Growth" by Joel Mokyr and the works by Deirde Mccloskey if you think that culture does not matter on development. That was my point. I said that the exAmples could be wrong on the very post. It's Friday and have other things to do. Be happy with your own refusal to understand my point and actually engage like a honest person with my argument. GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 22:18, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

So, you have a book about the Industrial Revolution and someone working for the Koch-funded Cato Institute? Neither of which actually address the topic of "ghetto culture"? Your thinking also seems to be fallacious, for instance "a country having a lot of natural reasources is beneficial for its devolopment" is probably an uncontroversial statement, but "Congo is undeveloped, so it must have little to no natural resources" is an obviously falacious conclusion. Even if you can establish that culture can have an effect on economics, it doesn't follow that 1. culture can have an effect on education outcomes 2. that all poor economic outcomes must, to some extent, have something to do with culture 3. if cultural issues exist, they are the cause and not the result of poor outcomes 4. that any specific culture even has these issues to begin with. And of all these, you have established a grand total of… none of them! Meaning, you basically pulled the claim put of your ass and are appealing to vague principles that it might be possible to proof that it's true and I am in the wrong and am clearly misrepresenting your argument for taking any sort of exception to it. Look in the mirror Plutocow (talk) 22:37, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

At this point you're trolling. So, you've never read anything about the subject and you still want to have strong opinions and use the genetic fallacy to dismiss the source? No, it is a controversial statement, it's the paradox of plenty. Seriously, Plutocow, you should at least read the very basic. 1 So, you're saying that cultures that value education don't have better economic outcomes? Tell South Korea that (I don't like their education model, but they grew in part because of that as far as I know). 2 Yes, because poverty has many causes, I listed five on draft:Poverty, culture is only one of them. If you want my opinion, institutions are far more important. When did I say that? 3 Again, I do think systemic racism is one the main reason. It was just an example on a fucking talk page, an example that I said it could be wrong. But why not both? Cultural aspects are hard to change. They can be a cause (though, for the tenth time, the example on that talk page was just... an example, that I acknowledge that could be wrong) 4. So, it's cultures don't have different approaches when it comes to education? And do all these different approaches always will result in the same outcome? GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 22:52, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

How do you even measure cultural importance of things like education though? Obviously my school getting significantly better grades than the one next over doesn't prove that my town is culturally superior because the two towns are very similar in terms of demographics, history, etc. Obviously, countries with better institutions are going to have better outcomes, but you run into an is-ought problem (do they have good institutions because they "value" education, or do they "value" education because of their good institutions? Is good education a prerequisite of devolpment or a result of it? Given that illiteracy was not uncommon in the developed world up until WWII, it could be seen that the latter might be the case. Granted, today's economy requires a much more educated workforce from back then, but still if the most educated countries are the ones that were already doing well before that point, then you can see the problem with directly tying education to culture. Also, "cultural aspects are hard to change" you need a citation for that. And you still have provided not a sliver of evidence for your specific claims about black culture and "redneck culture". For instance, it is a fact that metals are generally solid at room temperature and atmospheric pressure. Does that prove that mercury is solid under those conditions? Plutocow (talk) 23:11, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I'll make an exercise here and assume good faith. To quote the World Bank:

For a variety of reasons, economists have avoided getting too closely involved with the concept of culture and its relationship to economic development. There is a general acceptance that culture must have a role in guiding a population along a particular path, but, as Landes (1998) points out, a discomfort with what can be construed as implied criticism of a particular culture has discouraged broader public discourse.

In other words, people avoid making this sort of studies. Some attempts have been made though, even if they had some controversy over them. Once again, according to the entry on the World Bank page:

Huntington (2000) remarks how in the early 1960s Ghana and Korea were broadly comparable in terms of income per capita, structure of production, and foreign aid. Thirty years later the contrast could not be more pronounced. According to Huntington, culture had a major role in explaining it: “South Koreans valued thrift, investment, hard work, education, organization, and discipline. Ghanaians had different values. In short, cultures count." The problem with this formulation is that it does not provide a very auspicious basis to start a dialogue with Ghana as to how they could catch up with Korea. Not surprisingly, international financial organizations and bilateral donors have shied away from framing the debate in terms of cultural norms.

Regarding your question on the is-ought problem, it probably started as better education, with stuff such as the printing press being invented, which allowed for even better education as far as I remember. Also, stop pretending to be educated on the subject. Regarding cultural aspects being hard to change, you only need to see how religion (the most important cultural aspect of all) have changed in a very slow rate over the last thousands of years. Regarding the lack of evidence on black culture, I'll say it again. It was a bloody example that was the first one that came on my mind. I don't remember when and where I read about it, but you're intentionally missing the big picture here. GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 23:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

How do you prove that South Koreans value "thrift, investment, hard work, education, organization, and discipline" and that Ghanans don't? Ghana additionally has multiple different cultures living within its borders, so were any real anthropology or sociology studies made here? You say I'm not educated on the subject, but your statements on the US which I am very well educated on are completely wrong and you have made no real attempt to defend them besides trying to redirect me to countries like South Korea, Ghana, and Italy in which I am not familiar with any of the specific nuances of (and let's be honest you aren't either). It feels like a bad-faith way of diverting from the actual issues of the argument. And the specifics of the black culture argument is important here, because it's the part of your statements that I specifically took issue with and you trying to put it in a broader argument without defending your specific claims is a red herring. Plutocow (talk) 23:45, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok, Plutocow, I had to leave now, and since you're still disingenuously arguing that my main point is that black culture enacts poverty, and that wasn't an example that, as I said, could or could not be wrong, I don't think you be approached with reason. You had the last word. Congratulations. You're a winner! GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 23:49, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

If it "could or could not be wrong", you didn't have to dig your heels in to defend it so hard. Just admit that you have no evidence and you're sorry for spreading claims you are taking out of your ass that have been used to justify racism and that you won't do it again and we'll be good. This is like someone trying to defend racialism by going into general principles about evolution and when called out say "it's just an example, maybe it's true, but you deny evolution!" If I am the "winner", it's not because you gave up but rather because you failed to even really try to defend the position I called you out on in the first place. Remember, you were the one who generalized this into "so you're saying that culture has no effect?" Plutocow (talk) 23:56, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

So, let me understand two things before I get out. First, after calling me a racist, you said that we'll be good as long as I say that the example was bad? Well, I'm not happy with sharing a place with racists. If anyting, you should apologize for calling me those things if you weren't saying them for real. Second, You're saying that the education and income gaps between groups such as blacks, hispanics and white people living in some rural areas when compared with Asians and other white groups can solely be explained by institutional factors, and that cultural factors, in this case, are irrelevant. In other words, systemic racism is the only explanation for the gaps? Is that correct? That's an honest question, and I think it's possible that this is the case. GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 00:25, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

It's not just a "bad example", it's that you confidently made a statement that was wrong and refuse to fully admit it was wrong, made worse by the fact that it's the same language that many politicians and think tanks use to justify not addressing the systemic discrimination in place. You can just say "I was wrong about attributing the bad educational outcomes for inner city blacks and poor white people even in part to a supposedly inferior culture when I had no evidence to back it up," not "I just used a bad example". It's not just systemic racism (including related issues like colonialism) but plenty of institutional factors like corporate exploitation (Appalachia has a long history of "company towns"), longstanding labor issues, poor infrastructure, etc. In many ways, these problems intersect with each other, but making any statements that "culture" is a reason these areas have struggled. For instance, what culturally separates West Virginia from the farmlands of eastern Virginia or central Ohio, which are much better off relatively speaking? To use a more international example, what cultural factors separate Botswana from Zimbabwe or Zambia that cause Botswana to be relatively better off? That's not something you can answer in a single economics paper (or a single sociology paper really), and even if there was an answer could it really be disentangled from the other factors I mentioned? Plutocow (talk) 00:48, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Award

Congratulations, GeeJayK! You have been awarded the prestigious Fish in the Face award for your contributions to RationalWiki! Keep up the good work! Our community really appreciates your good work! I'd put a refnote here but I don't wanna muck up your talk page.

—cosmikdebris talk stalk 00:59, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 02:50, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Nominated

You've been nominated in the upcoming moderator elections. See the nomination at RationalWiki:Moderator elections/Nominations.

—cosmikdebris ^talk stalk 20:24, 6 November 2024 (UTC)