Talk:Atheists say the darnedest things

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Another list?

Two cows again? Se7en^Eight 03:21, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not really sure what Human means by this...I'm tempted to just put in a tumbleweed and call it a night. Tetronian ^{you're clueless} 03:23, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I am thinking it should be fun at the very least. Se7en^Eight 03:25, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Not two cows, you lamer. We can has better article than Ken. Surely you've all read things that atheists say that are embarrassing? ħuman 03:35, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Lamer? I see, you're RW's TK! Se7en^Eight 03:36, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I bet I could think of some things...

But most of them are not related to atheism. For example, James Watson (of DNA discovery fame) seems to routinely excrete odious material from his mouth, but most of it is not actually about atheism, so it seems a bit weird to quote it. Same goes for Bill Maher and his germ theory denialism. Or anything SE Cupp says (assuming that she's a dishonest cynical atheist, and not a dishonest cynical fundie pretending to be an atheist). Yeah, it's atheism and stupidity residing in the same brain, but there's not a clear interaction there. It's so much easier to make a decent list about fundies, because fundamentalist beliefs are themselves so wacky.

That said, I'll keep an eye out. I know that every once in a while I hear an atheist say disparaging things about religion that seem to be anti-free-speech. --Quantheory (talk) 05:19, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Run with it, that was what I was looking for when I started this thing. ħuman 05:43, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

These may be weird sayings, but are they said because they are atheists? You could probably get quite a few pages with Stalin alone if you wanted to. You could do one with "Christians say the darnedest things" and fill it with Hitler.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 06:52, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, that was the same thing I was thinking. It doesn't seem like a "Christians say the darnedest things" list should be composed of just any random stupid thing that anyone has said who happens to be a Christian. We'd probably fill it with things actually related to or justified by Christianity, or with bad quotations by particularly famous priests/preachers/theologians/whatever. So it doesn't seem to make sense to fill this list with any stupid thing that's said by an atheist, unless it's a specifically antitheist statement, or a statement made by someone who was famous in large part because he/she promoted atheism.

Otherwise it like we're saying that, for example, H.P. Lovecraft was racist because "That's just one of those things that atheism makes these crazy people believe." Of course, if H.P. Lovecraft has actually tied the two together, that would be different (and I would find such a construction hilarious), but I doubt that that's actually happened. People don't seem to use atheism to conclude a lot of things, whether smart or dumb.

That said, this maybe was intended to be a borderline "Fun:" sort of article, in which case I'm thinking way too hard about this. Or just to prove that we can criticize atheists here, which is not something I thought was in dispute, but I guess we can have an article devoted to that.

Anyone got dirt on Dawkins? Hitchens? I'll totally throw in some of the Darwin family and Ingersoll, who are trivial to quote-mine. Or are we focusing more on people who are really truly cuckoo for cocoa puffs? I guess I'm just missing the point here. --Quantheory (talk) 08:48, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm thinking of starting "Molecular biologists say the darnedest things" and putting quotes by James D. Watson in there. It would be equally valid.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 08:56, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

You could write a short book of terrible quotes by Watson (it would read like The Bell Curve, if it was written by a stereotypical frat boy). --Quantheory (talk) 09:10, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Maybe that's a bit too specific anyway. How about "Bald people say the darnedest things"?--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 11:14, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Bob, I know you think that Glorious Atheism is beyond criticism, but I think we probably could dig up some really stupid quotes about it. I'm pretty sure RW's archive of crap will have some in. ^narchist 11:36, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't know where I ever said that, but thanks for sharing your opinion. Anyway, leaving your ad hominems and straw men aside, my point is that the only valid things to put in here would be things people said because they are atheists. Such a thing is entirely possible, and I look forward to the examples. Silly things said by people who just happen to be atheists would not seem to be relevant.

I also suspect there may be an element of balance fallacy here.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 11:48, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I see that the irrelevant stuff has been removed.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 11:52, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

No, you never said that outright, I'm just interpreting your attitude to atheism that I've observed. ^narchist 11:58, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Then perhaps you need to work on your observation skills, drop the sarcasm and take care when putting words in the mouths' of others.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 12:02, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

FSTDT

occasionally includes some rather cringe-inducing quotes from "atheist fundies" (no, not the "New Atheists", but forum morons saying things like "kill all Christians"). Though I don't know if there is a way of extracting the quotes without sieving through the whole archive. --ZooGuard (talk) 06:19, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I found these searching the site for "fundamentalist atheist" and from some personal recollections:

http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=73600

http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=43785

http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=64294

http://fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=62268

I find it hilarious that we have examples of atheists saying stupid shit and CP (despite having an article entitled 'Atheists say the darnedest things') doesn't. --Night Jaguar (talk) 10:59, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

These could be good examples - on they other hand they are not being said by well known people.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 11:07, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Why does it have to be said by a well known person? None of the quotes from RW's FSTDT article are from well known people (with the possible exception of Andy).

Maybe the article should be renamed 'Fundamentalist atheists say the darndest things'? FSTDT was actually originally gonna be called 'Christians say the darndest things', but was changed because the target was extremism, not necessarily Christianity. Yes, I know the title comes from one of Krazy Ken's "essays", but it would just be a small change. --Night Jaguar (talk) 12:36, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I've got no problem with them being attributed to "Unknown idiot on the internet" or whatever. It's just that the (irrelevant) samples presently in the article are from famous people, which is what I had assumed the article's defenders were after.

Your proposed name change does rather assume that fundamentalist atheists exist - something which could itself be contentious.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 13:05, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the issue of whether or not "fundamentalist atheists" exist is merely a matter of semantics. The answer would depend on how you are using the terms. When I say "fundamentalist atheist" I mean an atheist who holds extreme views with regards to religion (e.g, religious people need to be imprisoned/killed). Do you agree that such people can and do exist? If you can think of a better term to describe them feel free to suggest it.--Night Jaguar (talk) 13:25, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

It's a big topic. I quite like the way our existing article atheist fundamentalism deals with it. If you disagree with how it's used there then that article might be the place to take it up.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 13:37, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

With regard to a better term - "irrational atheists" perhaps? --Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 13:48, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

No, I don't think it's better. Everyone can say something immoral and/or stupid, regardless of whether they can be qualified as "rational" or not.--ZooGuard (talk) 13:59, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

OK.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 14:02, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Mining

I assume shameless quote mining doesn't count, otherwise we'd have plenty to choose from. Richard Dawkins claiming that Hitler was right to kill Jews, for instance. ^narchist 10:43, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Not sure, but preferable to the tumbleweeds, which is just silly. I'll see if I can think of any that are better than quote mining. ħuman 23:37, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Its not like atheists are immune to gaffes (or any other negative traits, for that matter). But I think this page should be moved to Embarrassing things said by atheists. --Sir Onion ^{Kneel before my vegetable might!} 23:48, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I disagree, Onion. I think this article should go head-to-head on google results against Ken's laughable article on CONservapedia of the same name. The Spikey Punk ^{I'm punking my punk!} 00:44, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not going to edit war over this but - for example - did Ann Rand say: "Do you ask if it's ever proper to help another man? ... Yes — if such is your own desire based on your own selfish pleasure." because she was an atheist or because if fitted her political philosophy?--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 07:12, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

You can happily say that about all of them. I've added a commentary to that effect. ^narchist 07:45, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I know you can say that about all of them. That was my point. For this article to make any sense it would need something like: "Because I am an atheist I think that all theists should be sterilised" (I do not believe this). For all I know some atheist may has said something like this once. Selecting random silly statements make by people who happen to be atheists is pointless and I don't understand why they are included as we both agree that are not made as a consequence of atheism.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 09:49, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Because this is Human's article on Human's wiki. -- Nx / talk 09:59, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I find this argument persuasive on one level but ultimately unconvincing.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 10:22, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Agree with what Bob said here and above, this looks indeed like an attempt to appear fair and balanced when there's not a lot of substance to it. The thing with atheism is that not much follows from the simple negation of god's existence, contrary to religion. Religions are never content with just the basic affirmation of some god's existence, those which survive long enough invariably construct sweeping narratives and frameworks about how the world works, acquiring a lot of nonsensical baggage along the way. Accordingly, fundies who try to maintain a comprehensive worldview will be in conflict with much of reality and have many opportunities to make idiotic statements that are informed by their religious beliefs. Röstigraben (talk) 10:36, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I suggest that we remove all the ones which are simply stupid things said by atheists while we await example of stupid things said by atheists because they are atheists.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 10:56, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

cut from article

I have removed the following edit by User:ZooGuard from the article as personal attacks on other editors are more appropriate for talk pages or possibly email discussions.

Cut begins:

Note A lot of material similar to the quotes listed bellow has been used in religious apologetics to smear atheists with guilt by association and/or making a false analogy between atheism and religious fundamentalism. It is understandable why some atheists (among them at least one on Rational Wiki) who are sick of such rhetorical tricks would object to compiling such a list. Nevertheless, those atheists must face the fact that a) due to human nature, it's inevitable that some people who don't believe in god(s) are assholes, and b) some of those assholes are assholes because of their atheism (or use it to rationalize their behaviour). Or, as some people love to say, "Grow a thicker skin!".

Cut ends.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 15:00, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I note in passing that not one single editor has been able to explain why the present quotes - which are not about atheism - should be in this article.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 15:02, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Just a personal dig. I wouldn't even have reposted it here. Totnesmartin (talk) 15:07, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but I always dislike the idea of arguing by deleting. Reposting it also make an edit war less likely.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 15:09, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Bob, why are you taking this so personally? ħuman 09:41, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I didn't think I was, but a couple of posters seem to want to take it with me personally for some reason. Anyway, I've said all I'm going to say on this talk page. (Unless somebody asks me a question here.) Have fun with your article. :-) --Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 10:25, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, have fun with your article, but don't quote mine me. -- Nx / talk 15:12, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, I did attempt at some serious commentary on it, but as people just want to is cause bitching and butthurt (RationalWiki? Hah! What do they call it rational'??) I may as well propose deletion. ^narchist 15:15, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Your commentary is the only reason I didn't do that already. -- Nx / talk 15:44, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Idea

It occurs to me that people who believe in the Singularity (LessWrong et al.) are atheists. They have more than enough nutty quotes to go around. Tetronian ^{you're clueless} 00:16, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

For example, one of them said: "I'm pretty sure that I'm glad I know, but it might be a good idea to ask people if they are willing to receive information that makes them vulnerable to eternal torture." Though they are saying that because they are singularians (?), rather than because they are atheists. Broccoli (talk) 00:41, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

That's true, they don't say things like this directly because of lack of belief in a god. Do singularitarians (I think that's the spelling) count, then? Tetronian ^{you're clueless} 00:47, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Run with it! ħuman 03:03, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Best description I've read of this whole technological singularity: the nerd rapture. Paradise on earth and eternal life are coming soon. There's just more sexbots than the Christian version. --Night Jaguar (talk) 06:25, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Example

Does this warrant inclusion in the article? Some jerk quote-mined John Adams and then reacted in an idiotic way when Ed Brayton challenged him. --ZooGuard (talk) 19:26, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Yep, sounds pretty spot on as an example. ^narchist 21:54, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Rove??

On the one hand, Christopher Hitchens has claimed that Karl Rove is an atheist. On the other hand, Rove has defended Christianity in debate with Christopher Hitchens. He may be an agnostic, but should he really be on this list?--WickerGuy (talk) 01:21, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

I say close enough.--"Shut up, Brx." 01:21, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Rove is definitely Christian in fact, claiming he was misquoted by Hitchens, and Hitchens retracted. See [1]--WickerGuy (talk) 01:22, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Seems you're right.--"Shut up, Brx." 01:24, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Fortunately at rationalwiki, we don't take that fact that his middle name is Christian, and his birthday being Christmas as evidence :)--WickerGuy (talk) 05:24, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Spelling intentional?

Why is 'darndest' spelled 'darnedest' here? Am I missing the joke or something like that? Yet 'darndest' is spelled right in relation to 'Fundies', not sure what the significance of that is. Nullahnung (talk) 02:00, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

So apparently it is a generally accepted alternate spelling... didn't know that. Still, it annoys a little that both spellings are present in the article. Nullahnung (talk) 02:10, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Bob Avakian

Is saying that Marxism is the best analysis of the world really a "darndest thing?" Can't we find something actually crazy from Avakian? Rand0 (talk) 16:48, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

The FSTDT quote

The FSTDT quote is actually not a single post, but a compilation of the author's posts in a blog comment thread, omitting the posts of the other participant in the discussion without any indication what was done. What should be done with it?--ZooGuard (talk) 19:23, 13 June 2014 (UTC)