Talk:Circumcision

From RationalWiki
Jump to: navigation, search
This page is automatically archived by Archiver
Archives for this talk page: <1>

¿Why do not we point out that the HIV-Study in Africa (the same researchers replicated their studies with studies) are methodologically flawed?[edit]

The methodology was to split sexually active HIV-negative men into 2 groups, sexually mutilate the genitals of half the men, and START THE CLOCK RUNNING IMMEDIATELY. Given that the sexually mutilated men could not have sex for months and the study ended after 6 month, that could in and of itself totally explain the reduction in HIV-infection. Given how obvious this flaw is, one almost gets the impression that the researchers deliberately designed a flawed study. I, a nobody could design a better study:

  1. Sedate a large number of sexually active HIV-negative men who volunteered for the study.
  2. Randomize so that half wake up without a præpuce.
  3. Wait 1 year.
  4. Test both groups for HIV.
  5. Remove HIV-positive men from the study from both groups (this undoes the forced abstinence during healing).
  6. Wait 1 more year.
  7. Test both groups.

Well now, even using their own numbers, sexual genital mutilation is not every effective:

Even if we assume that the dubious claim that sexual genital mutilation reduces HIV-infection, using the dubious numbers of the study, it reduces it to 40% of bareback. Condoms reduce the risk of HIV to less than 10% of bareback. Since condoms can be bought in bulk for a quarter apiece and sexually mutilating the genitals of a man costs 100.00 U$D, for the cost of 1 sexual genital mutilation, one could buy the man all the condoms he needs for his years of spreading his wild oats before finally settling down and marrying. Condoms are a better investment. As for both, that is not a likely outcome:

  • ¡I did not have myself sexually mutilated just so that I have to wear a condom too (risk compensation)!
  • ¡Now that I have no præpuce, I cannot come wearing a condom, so I do not use them (sexual-genital-mutilation-caused reduction in sexual sensation, leading to anorgasmia while wearing condoms, leading to condom-refusal because men have sex for orgasming)!

Fucking kindergarten-tier pettiness[edit]

Stop re-inserting blatantly biased sources just to take revenge against me for the edit war about the Regressive Left article. This is incredibly petty.--The Kigel (talk) (mail) (block) 18:03, 4 July 2016 (UTC) 18:03, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm doing nothing of the kind.
Will you please tell me why you don't like the sources? Is anything in them factually incorrect? If so, please point them out and we can see about modifying from there. --Castaigne2 (talk) 18:04, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
They're too biased, fond some webside not on a crusade against or for circumcision.--The Kigel (talk) (mail) (block) 18:09, 4 July 2016 (UTC) 18:09, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
That didn't answer the question and now I know you won't really respond. But I'll repeat for emphasis - Is anything in them factually incorrect? --Castaigne2 (talk) 18:14, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Page protection[edit]

I have locked the page to sysop only for one day to stop all the edit warring that's currently going on.--JorisEnter (talk) 18:06, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

There's no need. I won't bother to edit. Kugel isn't going to talk about it anyway; any time I make an effort at asking why and how and so forth he just ignores it. Better to let him have his way. --Castaigne2 (talk) 18:10, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Why is FGM[edit]

If the article is about male circumcision, why is there a paragraph on FGM? I thought the two are completely incomparable? Obviously you think the two are related, or else that paragraph wouldn't be there. There

(Male circumcisiopn actually literally equals FGM - and yes, I'm aware that 10 year ld girls bleed to death from FGM which is actually why I'm saying this because that's what happens to boys in Africa all the time. The truth is feminist women are just entitled and their female ego leads them to somehow think that male circumcision is about them.)

There is literally no other issue that you think should a separate paragraph about something completely unrelated attached to- why is male circumcisiomn the ONNNE and ONNNLLY issue ever in the world that has this standard? Why not have a paragraph on a page about robbery on how murder is worse?

If FGM is so incomparable, why are you comparing them? Seriously, why are feminists pro-circumcision? Why is FGM talked about on this page? That paragraph doesn't belong there and doesn't make any sense — Unsigned, by: 23.243.216.110 / talk / contribs

Dorsal slit[edit]

We compare the dorsal slit to FGM but the Wikipedia page (NSFW) describes it as a treatment for phimosis and paraphimosis. The page recognizes that it is that it is a crude treatment and that this treatment doesn't appear to be used for phimosis, but it is still used for paraphimosis when conservative treatments fail. Finally. some African tribes have or still use dorsal slits as a way to treat phimosis. I don't see how this is comparable to FGM since dorsal slits have a legitimate medical use and that the African tribes that practice it don't use it as a form of sexual punishment.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 19:22, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Studies on behavioral differences in babies[edit]

This e-book mentions a study by a Dr. Richards on page 96, I was wondering if differences in infant behavior have been corroborated or disproved by additional studies; woo or not, infant behavioral differences should be listed under medical issues. X-Factor (talk) 22:09, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

I also wondered why the psychological harm for (male) circumcising infants is not mentioned anywhere in the article. --Gyb (talk) 05:56, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm disappointed that this article isn't funnier[edit]

Much of RationalWiki that I've seen is hilarious, while also being excellent and accurate as a resource. I came here after encountering some humorless anti-circ-'ers on Twitter, looking for both facts and laughs. Nothing about closing your eyes and thinking of the English? That, smegma isn't the transubstantiation of pure infant rights? Something about how sausage is made? Oh well, maybe someday.

Bodily autonomy?[edit]

After it was brought to my attention by a friend, I'm surprised there's nothing on this page about bodily autonomy and the possible psychological repercussions of having one's ostensibly most private parts altered, especially during childhood and/or without consent. Twentydragon (talk) 13:43, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, while I'm pleased that this article is significantly better than it was last I checked on it a couple years ago (though far from perfect...), but the fact that it just sorta glosses over the consent issue is extremely disappointing to me. Especially since I love Rational Wiki so much otherwise. I really do think we could do better than just sorta say "lol SOME PEOPLE (rolling eyes) think that the lack of consent is a reason why circumcision should be delayed until adulthood". That's a major moral objection to the practice and the article treats it like it's some fringe opinion.
The entire article reads like it was written by an American who first encountered opposition to circumcision in the form of misogynists who use it to shut down discussions of women's issues or who equate it in severity to FGM. It's deeply in need of a global perspective, not one limited to the American experience where infant circumcision is taken for granted as a necessary procedure for boys.
Remember that just because you first heard an idea from someone with otherwise problematic positions, does not mean they have a monopoly on that idea. What we have done is cede the position that infant circumcision is wrong to horrible people on the far right and now we're forcing more moderately-minded folks to reject a logical opinion just because it reminds them of bad people.

24.255.217.64 (talk) 22:20, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Sources about Medical Organizations are False[edit]

The vast majority of medical organizations condemn non-therapeutic, male circumcision. You only included a short list of ones that did not, however, the vast majority do after conducting thorough risk-benefit analyses. Please edit this article as it is unfactual. Here is a list of organizations that have come out against circumcision:
  • Canadian Paediatric Society
  • College of Physicians and Surgeons of Saskatchewan
  • College of Physicians and Surgeons of Manitoba
  • College of Physicians and Surgeons of British Columbia [pdf]
  • Australian Pædiatric Association
  • Australian College of Pediatrics
  • Australasian Association of Paediatric Surgeons
  • Australian College of Paediatrics
  • Royal Australasian College of Physicians [pdf]
  • Australian Medical Association
  • Paediatric Society of New Zealand
  • New Zealand Society of Paediatric Surgeons
  • Belgium Advisory Committee on Bioethics
  • British Medical Association
  • General Medical Council (GMC) of the United Kingdom
  • British Association of Paediatric Surgeons
  • President of the British Association of Paediatric Urologists
  • The Royal Dutch Medical Association (KNMG) [pdf]
  • The Netherlands Society of General Practitioners
  • The Netherlands Society of Youth Healthcare Physicians
  • The Netherlands Association of Paediatric Surgeons
  • The Netherlands Association of Plastic Surgeons
  • The Netherlands Association for Paediatric Medicine
  • The Netherlands Urology Association
  • The Netherlands Surgeons’ Association
  • German Association of Pediatricians
  • German Association of Child and Youth Doctors
  • Nordic Association of Clinical Sexology [pdf] joint statement issued on behalf of Finnish Association for Sexology, *Norwegian Society for Clinical Sexology, Danish Association for Clinical Sexology, Swedish Association for Sexology, *Icelandic Sexology Association and Estonian Academic Society for Sexology
  • Nordic Ombudsmen for Children and Pediatric Experts [pdf] (representing Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, and Greenland)
  • Finnish Association of Pediatric Surgeons (Sulamaa Society)
  • Finnish Medical Association
  • Norwegian Council of Medical Ethics [pdf]
  • Norwegian Children’s Ombudsman
  • Norwegian Medical Association
  • Norwegian Nurses Organization
  • Norwegian Nursing Association
  • University of Oslo
  • Swedish Pediatric Society
  • Swedish Children's Ombudsman
  • Swedish Society of Medicine (SLS)
  • Swedish Society of Health Professionals (Vårdförbundet)
  • Swedish Paediatric Society (BLF)
  • Swedish Association of Pediatric Surgeons (SLF)
  • Danish Medical Association (Lægeforeningen)
  • Danish Society of Family Physicians (Dansk Selskab for Almen Medicin)
  • Danish Society for Anaesthesiology and Intensive-care Medicine (DASAIM) [pdf]
  • South African Medical Association
  • Icelandic Medical Association [pdf]

— Unsigned, by: 2603:7000:2406:1600:2875:da4e:ba14:3bed / talk