Talk:Fascism

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Fascism & the Catholic Church - a parody picture[edit]

When I get the time, I'll make some changes to this new section because it completely misses the very specific Italian context and instead paints a false dilemma of the Catholic Church having to choose between liberalism and communism (as if those were the main strains of politics at the time...). I just thought I might as well announce this up front, though it might not be until Saturday that I have the time to actually edit this stuff. ScepticWombat (talk) 06:31, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Fascism and the Political Spectrum[edit]

In my opinion it's irrelevant to ask whether or not Fascism is left-wing or right-wing because, historically speaking, Fascism never had it's own political worldview. What makes it Fascism is what it becomes in practice. In Italy, National Syndicalism was more of a bizarre syncretic doctrine, neither explicitly left or right, before an industrialist backed Mussolini co-opted it, ultimately transforming it into a tool of labour suppression and right-wing terror. The same was true of pre-Hitler National Socialism in Germany, which promoted a weird type of pan-Germanism combined with nationalism, anti-zionism and state-capitalism. Under Hitler's leadership it became backed by big industry and was, again, used as a tool of labour suppression and right-wing terror. So it seems to me that considering whether or not Fascism is left or right is placing too much emphasis on proto-Fascism, as well as what is initially preached, rather than what is practiced.

In practice, Fascism is always the same - and one never has to ask whether Fascism is left or right. One only has to look at who the fascists are shooting and for what reason.

Some ideas[edit]

Add some sections about: metaxism (greek fascism), portuguese fascism (Salazar), integralism (brazilian fascism), british fascism (Mosley), red fascism (stalinism), hungarian fascism. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 17:04, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

origin of red fascist[edit]

GR has deleted my section on red fascism which explained the origin of the term red fascist and instead started the section with a completely unsubstantiated statement. I don't think this change makes sense at all and its mostly a pointless dig at socialists in its current state. Maybe if they had some sort of study on the amount of defense for the USSR's progroms among socialists would the argument make sense. The section removed was also the only section with citations in the section. Vorarchivist (talk) 15:51, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Seconded.-Flandres (talk) 16:00, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Icon fedora.svg * dons Mod Hat *Icon fedora.svg

GR be cooperative. Someone posed you a question. Explain your reasoning. Don't accuse another of bad faith. I've resetted this discussion. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 18:54, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@LeftyGreenMario Citation was asked and citation was provided. Check the page. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 19:00, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

"4. See J. Edgar Hoover, "Red Fascism in the United States Today," American Magazine, CXLIII (Feb. 1947), 24: Jack B. Tenney, Red Fascism (Los Angeles, 1947); Howard K. Smith, The State of Europe (New York, 1949), 67. The chairman of the Republic National Committee, Carroll Reece, called some Truman administration officials "Red Fascists," (Nation's Business, XXXIV [Oct. 1946], 31,) Socialist leader Norman Thomas spoke in the same vein: "Such is the logic of totalitarianism" that "communism, whatever it was originally, is today Red Fascism," (Norman Thomas), "Which Way America---Fascisnm, Communism, Socialism or Democracy?" Town Meeting Bulletin, XIII [Mar, 16, 1948], 19-20.)" β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 19:13, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Since me and EK disproved the whitewashing and added the citation they desperately needed (they didn't, they were plotting to harass me on discord anyway and this is made up drama once again), please fuck off vora/oxy/flandres/any other anarchist goon β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 19:15, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Does this suffice, @LeftyGreenMario? β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 19:16, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
You could've just added the source (sans colors that hinder legibility...) and left it at that, but you just had to insert another unfounded tirade on whitewashing, plotted harassment, and calling others "anarchist goon". --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 19:20, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Family friendly version enabled. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 19:24, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Okay. πŸ™„ Any reason for the bolded red and green font? --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 19:25, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜ dont worry it wasn't a dogwhistle aimed at you, it was just the colors I had first in mind. I just like red and green. well the red was aimed at socialists the green i just chose as the first option. couldve used blue too. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 19:29, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

how can I plot to harass you on discord? I don't share a discord with you so this just doesn't make sense. Vorarchivist (talk) 19:42, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
I have eyes. Go in the far-left ratwiki discord and mention a country name and I will reply to you here. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 19:44, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Not very good ones. *I* am not on discord at all. I am also emphatically NOT an anarchist, as so many people on this wiki can attest, so that post is really just so wrong as to be unsalvageable.-Flandres (talk) 19:46, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
yeah sure, that's why you and the others always come flying by, in groups. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 19:47, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Maybe I just monitored the recent changes page. DO you know how a wiki works? Ask anyone if they recognize me on discord.-Flandres (talk) 19:48, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

(Ec) Hey guys, it looks like a frivolous accusation, but that's going to go off topic. You guys are going off topic again. I'd not want to deal with this on this particular talk page. Anyway I didn't see the colors as some jab at me, I just didn't know why it was highlighted. I suppose it's meant to highlight dates to try to show the term was mentioned earlier? --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 19:48, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, since vora (wrongly) claimed the term was first coined by a socialist (it wasn't). β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 19:52, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
You know that your example isn't just any "socialist" or "communist" right? He's a Tankie. Extreme authoritarian left. But of course, you don't know the differences between the various radical left groups do you? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 19:56, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
not a mob, you say? why do the same wasps always attack me? isn't it weird how this isn't some conspiracy? it's always the same people lol β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 19:58, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
same wasps? this is the first time I even edited the same article as you and now you're snaping and me. What did I do?Vorarchivist (talk) 20:11, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
So you are shocked when regular users who disagree with you and openly state they disagree with you keep disagreeing with you when you talk about similar subjects? Not very smart, are we?-Flandres (talk) 20:01, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
yeah okay now fuck off, the issue was resolved, flandres. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 20:02, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
"Why is it the same mob that always attack me" Seriously? β€” Oxyaena Harass 20:37, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Facepalm --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 20:41, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Back on track[edit]

So I'm annoyed that I have to come out of retirement because Raven (still) doesn't know jack about the radical left, but I'll do my best to calmly explain. Yes, there are elements of the radical left that defend the USSR. These are Tankies, Marx-Lenists (sometimes different, usually they're interchangeable), dumbfuck radical leftists who's only real ideology is "United States bad", some Marxists, and Lenists. Most if not all of these groups can have moderate to severe overlap in membership. Leftist groups that don't like the USSR and say it was a bad thing include but are not limited to, Anarchism and all (actual Anarchists by the way, feudalists such as Anarcho-capitalists don't count, since they're right-wing, not left.) derivatives, barring maybe one or two obscure groups I've never heard of, a decent number of Marxists, most if not all Democratic Socialists, and Social Democrats. I honestly don't know where Trotskyists fit on this list. Anyway, please stop throwing all of these groups into the same basket, it's very annoying for people that know better. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 21:14, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Why are you being rude? β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 21:21, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
How is he being rude? Thunderclapper (talk) 21:27, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
"Raven (still) doesn't know jack about the radical left" its very impolite β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 21:29, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
It is also accurate. Civility has its place, but not when it is getting the way of correct assessment. Invoked then it is just a tone argument.-Flandres (talk) 21:32, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Since when is "doesn't know jack" very impolite? I see this all the time. Are you made of sugar or something? Thunderclapper (talk) 21:33, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Well, @Flandres, my dear enemy (by far not the only one), GC is wrong. In the article I explicitly wrote:

"It is worth noting that the term "red fascism" may also be used by anarchists and democratic socialists to distance themselves from the horrors of the Soviet past." So the complaint is nonsense. Not sure what else I have to say. Just don't be rude about it. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 21:38, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Actually, I was just talking about generally using impoliteness to dimiss an argument rather than this specific case, and that if you refute something you should say more than "meanie" but I can forgive you for being unable to interpret that.-Flandres (talk) 22:17, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Or maybe they actually were critics of that ideology all along, which you'd know if you could deflate your hate boner for Anarchism and actually become self aware. Please do ask some of the anarchists in the room about their feelings on how the Soviets "helped" them in Catalonia. Or maybe read Orwell's book on the subject. Or read a history book looking at contemporary and modern leftist thought on the USSR. Or read book in general. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 21:48, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Nobody claimed otherwise, and the rest of what you said is silly whataboutism. Since you refuse to read, here is what I wrote in the page, big letters and bold so that it is impossible to miss:

" It is worth noting that the term "red fascism" may also be used by anarchists and democratic socialists to distance themselves from the horrors of the Soviet past."
Translation: not every fucking commie is a red fascist. I'm going to sleep, if the article is edited with some factually incorrect shit i will just revert it. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 21:51, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

You claimed otherwise, and I quote: "Although adherents of socialism and communism would reject labeling the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) as fascist, many opponents would certainly make comparisons between the regime and ideology of that state with fascism." Is it too much to fucking ask for you fucking own up to your own gods damned mistakes? Is this really such a high bar? I think not. Furthermore, you have yet to address any of my points, and have only repeated yourself verbatum without once engaging with any of the points I've made. You accuse me of and other of bad faith, without proof, and then go to the Mods when we point out that you are wrong. Not to arbitrate a dispute, but to silence debate. And this bullshit is why I refuse to come back to this site. I have no fucking time in my life for a SocDem version of Trump. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 22:28, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

As to who invented the term "Red Fascism", this, depended on it's reception, would also be dependent on who popularized the term in question. This actually happens more often than you'd think when it comes to high profile ideas, such as Marx being better known than Hegel, or Hitler being better known than even Mussolini, and definitely being more well known than Tommaso MarinettiWikipedia, Giovanni GentileWikipedia, or Alceste De AmbrisWikipedia. (Though in the latter most case he later became an opponent of Fascism.) Short version, being first doesn't always mean you'll be credited with the idea later down the line. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 21:42, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

That's irrelevant, since vora claimed a socialist coined it, which is firstly irrelevant and secondly factually wrong. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 21:43, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜ "Flandres, my dear enemy...." sigh You think too highly of yourself, no one here thinks of you as being threatening enough to be their "enemy," you're a legend in your own mind. β€” Oxyaena Harass 22:38, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

As for "red fascists," the first real lefties I got to know were adamantly anti-Leninist, one of whom in particular was a Bordigist. If you knew anything about the radical left in general, you'd realize there has been anti-Bolshevik sentiment amongst the radical left since 1917 itself. β€” Oxyaena Harass 22:41, 25 June 2020 (UTC)