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Talk:Gender dysphoria

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http://www.rationalwiki.com/index.php?title=Gender_identity_disorder&curid=2630&diff=34428&oldid=17641 ? Keepgoats 07:06, 28 July 2007 (CDT)

Yes, interesting. I am reading the "reference" now, by the way. It is not very well written, so I am going to to see if I can find the "real" DSM source to cite. humanbe in 12:27, 28 July 2007 (CDT)

There are lots of places to find the DSM-IV online, I think the only ones you have to buy these days are the R and TR editions, which aren't remarkably different.
The figures are a bit outdated, too. It's generally believed now that the "source" genders are more or less equivalent in incidence. As to the 1:30,000 number, that's contested these days as well. --Kels 12:35, 28 July 2007 (CDT)

I wonder if a link to the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care, which describes the normal course of treatment for those diagnosed with GID, wouldn't be amiss? Here's one you can use. --Kels 12:55, 28 July 2007 (CDT)

Only social?[edit]

This here appears in the article as it stands:

It is a disorder only in that those that suffer from it struggle with cultural expectations of how they should act and "who they should be" relative to their genital appurtenances. As such, it is a "disorder" only in proportion to how much coercion and difficulty they experience as they try to "be themselves".

The problem is, it isn't actually true. The concept behind Gender Identity Disorder is Gender Dysphoria, which is to say that the person's internal gender identity does not match up with the external genetalia. It isn't a matter of social mores at all, save that social pressures often increase pressure not to do anything to deal with the problem. Cultural expectations aggravate matters, but they are secondary to the disorder itself, which often involves a great deal of body hatred. I'd like to hear some thoughts about how to re-word this to replace the above in the article. --Kels 18:05, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

So even in the total absence of societal expectations, GID would still occur, being a clash between the organs delivered and the non-matching mind? IE, no matter, even, "how cool people tell me it is, I still can't do with my doohickeys what I feel like they should do?" IE, I'd rather be a square peg than a round hole?
If I got your drift even half right, I'd recommend just cutting out what you quoted and putting in what you said here. Or, merging the two ideas if possible. Start with "Even in a idealized society where there were no gender behavior expectations, GDI would still occur due to..."? humanbe in 19:23, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
That's pretty much what I'm getting at, yes. The bucking of societal expectations fits more into the idea of transgender, although obviously there's overlap between the concepts. Some people don't go to the extent of surgery, finding that simply being able to live and function as the desired gender manages to cover enough of the discomfort arising from the dysphoria, but the majority have serious body issues that go beyond simple gender roles. It's pretty complicated stuff, and you have to be prepared to alter some basic assumptions in order to properly get it, but it's worth the effort. --Kels 19:40, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

Purpose?[edit]

Honestly, I'm asking myself exactly what purpose an article on RW on GID really has. There's not a lot we're refuting with it, and the WP article on the subject is actually quite good. Hell, the current article on CP of all places isn't entirely out to lunch (I know, give it time), so why waste our time with it? Any thoughts? --Kels 14:53, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

I don't think it needs to go; however, I agree with your sentiment that it does not "advance our mission", unless it at least debunks common misconceptions. But since those might not be bad science, say, well, you have a point. I'd still say "leave it", we have a nice clutch of articles on human sexuality, that at the very least shows we are open and intelligent about it rather than repressed or nervous. Not sure I actually said anything there... humanbe in 14:58, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
Oh, I get what you mean, and I agree. Just having reasonable articles on the topic says a lot about us having a decently unfettered worldview, and that's important. Also, it's a good placeholder for when the CP article goes seriously south, which is pretty much inevitable once RobS got interested in it. --Kels 15:01, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
It has a purpose in the sense that people, especially conservatives, are often quick to dismiss GID and transsexuality as a "delusion", usually based on religious or "common sense" justifications that it's "wrong and unnatural". The article needs expansion by an expert on the subject, but I agree its presence here is warranted. - LucidFox (talk) 03:37, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Bradley Manning[edit]

Kinda shocked there isn't an article about him (just WikiLeaks)...but apparently he's using gender identity confusion as part of his defense in his trial....interesting? relevent? Discuss. -- Seth Peck (talk) 23:19, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

That whole thing is a great bloody mess. I don't know where to begin. Blue Talk 22:15, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Natalie Reed on whether it's a disorder[edit]

Freethought Blogs' Natalie Reed: Is Gender Identity Disorder a Disorder? Summary: the dysphoria is, and it shouldn't be conflated with "being transgender".--ZooGuard (talk) 17:44, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

It's a great article that really brings up a reality of gender identity, dysporhia, or "whatever". it is an "illness" in the sense that for many (not all) people, they want some way to try to normalize **for themselves** not society. and, society needs to recognize that it is not just hatred (as with gays) though hatred goes along with TransG in all its forms, but it is an actual medical condition that a patient and her doctor will address in the way that is best for her, from "nothing" to "everything".--Green mowse.pngGodotWhen I graduated, Cognative Science of Religion didn't even exist! now it's everywhere 17:57, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
It's the placement of GID among the mental disorders that causes anguish. It's not a mental disorder. It is a medical condition with psychological side effects, and as such, those afflicted usually require medical treatment. In a perfect world, psychiatrists would be free to diagnose transsexualism or some such term as a medical condition, not as a DSM disorder. The DSM-V came close to actually implementing this, but got scared off by insurance companies who would jeopardize confirmational treatment. Blue Talk 19:12, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
also a good point! — Unsigned, by: WaitingforGodot / talk / contribs 19:15, 07 June 2012 (UTC)

Not a disorder?[edit]

So, a little bit of confusion here: in the article, the fact that gender dysphoria has (at least in some cases) physiological bases in the brain is used as an argument against the condition's classification as a disorder. I'm no psychiatry expert, but aren't there some problems with this argument? Autism, for example, also has physiological components, but (to the best of my knowledge) is still considered a disorder. (incidentally, I believe I've seen studies cited that demonstrated some correlation between autism and transgenderism/gender dysphoria, though that may not be relevant for the purposes of this article) 74.8.88.74 (talk) 00:43, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

The difference is the treatment - if gender dysphoria were a mental disorder then the goal would be to cure the individual without medical treatment. But because the treatment pathway is medical (hormones, surgeries, etc.), not psychotherapeutic, it is more properly classified as a medical condition than a mental disorder. Blue Talk 02:21, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
On what grounds is this distinction made, and by whom? Not being facetious, I'm genuinely curious. 74.8.91.6 (talk) 19:07, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Are you serious? If you really care about people who have this disorder, than you will admit that it's a disorder. Creating disability culture bullshit is harmful to the people with the disorder. There are tons of fuckers who are advocating against treating Autism because they think that it's a fucking master race or some shit instead of a disorder. –Александр(а) Ehrenstein (Talk | Contribs | Ragebox) 19:25, 11 June 2013 (UTC) Note: The following is an emotional response comprised for intial first reactions and thought to some situation. It is the result of temporary emotion and does not necessarily reflect the true thoughts of the user after considering the issue rationally. <rant>Holy shit was saying that a hate crime? Isn't not using the gender the person wants to be and not their actual gender a hate crime or some shit, or at least as advocated by the spineless fuckers who promote disability culture? I say this as someone who has a disability; these people are sick! –Александр(а) Ehrenstein (Talk </rant> - Sorry about going off.

Huh?
As for the disorder bit, see the discussion about the post by Natalie Reed above.--ZooGuard (talk) 19:42, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
I don't really follow how not classifying this as a disorder would be creating a disability culture, & the rest of your post is just angry blather. If I'm reading this right, you seem annoyed that people might identify as a gender other than their assigned physical sex and that healthcare professionals (those spineless fuckers) might be OK with this. Would you prefer that treatment of gender dysphoria encouraged transgender individuals to conform instead to their physical sex? WeaseloidWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 20:10, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
I think that people should conform to the sex that they were born into, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't tolerate and accept them as people. They have a disorder, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't accept them as people. I think maybe I'm annoyed that it seems like people don't understand this; just because these people are viewed as having a disorder doesn't mean that they can't be accepted. –Александр(а) Ehrenstein (Talk | Contribs | Ragebox) 21:02, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
"I think that people should conform to the sex that they were born into" - why? and how? SophieWilder 21:10, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
And today's award for most ignorant and hateful comment on Rationalwiki goes to..... Faced with mysteries dark and vast/statements just seem vain at last. 21:54, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
When you say "that doesn't mean that we shouldn't accept them as people", whose comment are you actually addressing? Has anyone suggested gender dysphoric individuals aren't people? And when you say "I'm annoyed that it seems like people don't understand this", have you thought seriously about whether you actually understand this issue better than all the psychologists, counsellors & therapists who work in this area + gender dysphoric people themselves? ΨΣΔξΣΓΩΙÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 22:58, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
(To the Inquisitor) What if you met someone whom you knew as a man, but after a year or so of casual friendship you found out he had been born female? Would you insist that he go back to being a woman, because he was born female? Does that negate the year of friendship with a man that you had experienced? This position doesn't make sense to me. Wehpudicabok (talk) 01:06, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
(To PSaL) Ignorant yes, hateful no. At least in my opinion. Wehpudicabok (talk) 01:07, 12 June :::2013 (UTC)
To Wehpudicabok, it depends on the situation. I probably wouldn't care that much either way, as I don't care that much how people live their lives if it doesn't negatively affect other people. Most likely, if they weren't physically still a man, I probably wouldn't care. I probably wouldn't say anything anyway.
To PSL, you are the only one here who is hateful. I made it very clear that I would accept such people, even if I find what they do questionable. You cannot handle anything other than what you believe, and you are therefore a closed minded bigot. –Александр(а) Ehrenstein (Talk | Contribs | Ragebox) 03:08, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
I think part of this could be misplaced compassion. I feel intense figurative pain whenever I see someone doing something "socially self sabotaging." If someone sees a man wearing a dress, they're going to think that's weird, and you can't blame them for being disturbed by it. I realize that such people are probably most often harmless, but it's not reasonable to try to convince the entire world that a man who is dressed as a woman is totally normal. –Александр(а) Ehrenstein (Talk | Contribs | Ragebox) 03:29, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I don't hate them -- they're just sick people who need to be "cured"! Where have I heard that line before? Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 04:22, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't think you understand what exactly we're discussing, Ehrenstein. For one thing, you bring up cross-dressing, but most cross-dressers aren't gender dysphoric; it's a completely different category. Cross-dressing is more like a hobby. By contrast, someone who is transgender (which is what causes gender dysphoria) identifies completely with a gender separate from what was assigned at birth; a trans woman isn't "a man wearing a dress" but a woman who used to be a man.
I also find it interesting that you seemed to imagine a man dressing as a woman (who would typically be confused with a male-to-female transsexual), whereas the hypothetical situation I described was of a female-to-male. I bring this up not to criticize but just to make a point about the public image of trans people, which seems to be something like "male-to-female trans people are men in drag, and female-to-male trans people don't exist." It's a troubling (not to mention quite inaccurate) state on both counts. Wehpudicabok (talk) 05:48, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Nebuchadnezzar, he never said they had to be cured. He said he found them questionable. I don't like his position either, but I also don't like misrepresentation. Wehpudicabok (talk) 05:53, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
I don't hate them -- they're just sick people who need to be "cured"! That's not what I said. Please refrain from being intolerant just because someone disagrees slightly with you. I don't think that they should be forcibly cured or any shit like that. I'm generally too liberal to give a fuck about what people want to do. Did you see the Death Camp of Tolerance South Park episode where Mr. Garrison explains the difference between tolerating something and approving of it.
Maybe I don't understand it. If people want to dress as the opposite sex, that's weird, but I don't give enough of a crap to have a problem with it; they can do what they want. I think one of the things I have a problem with is when these people make up their own rules and regulations for how they want to be dealt with, and then act like it's a hate crime if someone gets something wrong, like saying "former man" or using their original name. –Александр(а) Ehrenstein (Talk | Contribs | Ragebox) 06:11, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Again, you're talking about two different groups of people. Cross-dressers and transsexuals are not the same thing. (Neither are transsexuals and transgender people, for that matter, but the latter term is in something of a state of flux so that's a moot point.) As for your last comment, most trans people just want to put a stop to actual hate crimes, rather than nitpicking on language. That's my experience at least. Wehpudicabok (talk) 06:21, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
I also want to put a stop to actual hate crimes, which are trivialized when people have similar reactions over stupid language disputes. –Александр(а) Ehrenstein (Talk | Contribs | Ragebox) 06:30, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
Then it seems we're on the same side, and I'm glad. Wehpudicabok (talk) 06:32, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
The scenario you're ranting about is basically a strawman, my Russo-German-named friend, and you seem to be getting angry for the sake of getting angry. Trans people want to be treated with the respect and dignity afforded cis people; if this seems strange to you, I suggest you reevaluate just how "tolerant" you consider yourself to be. Blue Talk 08:36, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
As to be expected, Blue hits it out of the park. Faced with mysteries dark and vast/statements just seem vain at last. 12:54, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
How is this not implying that it's a sickness that needs to be "treated"? Ehrenstein: "If you really care about people who have this disorder, than you will admit that it's a disorder. Creating disability culture bullshit is harmful to the people with the disorder. There are tons of fuckers who are advocating against treating Autism because they think that it's a fucking master race or some shit instead of a disorder." Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 19:21, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I... guess I didn't see that comment of his. Wehpudicabok (talk) 06:52, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

You can accept that it's a disorder, and accept people who they are and not try to "cure" them unless they specifically come forward and say that they want to change. I don't think that being gay is a disorder, but I wouldn't care if it was and wouldn't think that it implied the need for a cure. If a consenting adult with Autism was convinced that it was a way of being and not a disorder, I wouldn't care if they didn't try to be cured and wouldn't insist on people trying to cure them. –Александр(а) Ehrenstein (Talk | Contribs | Ragebox) 04:15, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

There are trans people who consider being transsexual to be a medical condition (generally refered to as 'truscum' by other members of the trans community). I myself am one of these people. The reasoning I follow is that a disorder is both unusual and maladaptive. Being transsexual (which is definded by having gender dysphoria) is both those things and so is a disorder. There is no cure for being transsexual, but there is treatment: Transition (living as our prefered gender, hrt etc.) Being gay is not a disorder because it is not maladaptive. FraserTheIsomer (talk) 14:45, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Morbidity and treatment[edit]

So... this isn't something pleasant, but since evidence based medicine is pretty important to the mission, I gotta bring this up: gender reassignment surgery is not a good treatment by-and-large. Doubling morbidity over 20 years and increasing depression seem like distinctly ineffective at the primary aims of that treatment. I don't want to go around telling people with difficult conditions what's right for them, but... treating gender dysphoria with gender reassignment might, maybe, count as woo. Any thoughts? Ikanreed (talk) 16:03, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I haven't looked at the paper itself, but what you're saying seems to contradict the conclusion stated in that abstract: "Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group." I.E. treating gender dysphoria with sex reassignment alone may not be enough if not accompanied by other appropriate therapies; not that it may "count as woo". WēāŝēīōīďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 18:33, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
I don't know, if you increase both somatic and psychological symptoms compared a control group, it can be hard to honestly say you're treating a condition. It's a bit like anti-depressants that raise suicide rates in that. But I will refrain from calling it woo, because that is presumptuous. Ikanreed (talk) 19:32, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
"If you increase both somatic and psychological symptoms compared a control group, it can be hard to honestly say you're treating a condition" <-- You can only conclude this empirically if the control group was people with the same condition who don't receive treatment. Probably there have been other studies where this was the case, and probably they had different findings (see WP:Sex reassignment therapy #Effectiveness). But in this case, the control group was non-trans people. Hence the conclusion: "Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population." WeaseloidWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 20:05, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
Oh shoot. You're right. I have misread the methodology. Point withdrawn entirely. You can't expect people with any sort of mental disorder(I hate calling gender dysphoria that, because of the term's social baggage) to have lower rates of depression and healthier lifestyles than the general public. My apologies. Thanks for catching my mistake. Ikanreed (talk) 20:53, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
No problem. WẽãšẽĩõĩďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 20:55, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

As body horror[edit]

“Some male assigned at birth individuals who feel dysphoric about their genitals describe the feeling as having a big raw chicken stapled between one's legs.”

I guess that would explain their uncontrollable urge to choke the chicken. Slings and Arrows (talk) 17:17, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Snerk. On a serious note, though, does anyone have any qualms with me removing the "note that these are third-party anecdotes" chunk from the article? From a trans perspective, I can tell you that these are pretty fucking accurate. ArcticVixen (talk) 02:38, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Seriously Confused[edit]

I honestly don't understand the nuances between gender dysphoria and transgendered. Also, when reading through the is/is not section regarding this as a "disorder", I can't help but wonder, what standards are used to decide that this should be treated with surgery instead of psychotherapy.

Can anyone break this down for me Blue's Clues? B4Xiphos (talk) 09:28, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Is there a difference? or is a Transgendered person simply someone who was encouraged/chose to treat their dysphoria via other methods than psychotherapy? Forgive my ignorance, but it seems to me, that surgical methods and hormone treatment for a psychological condition is akin to putting an anorexic on a diet... B4Xiphos (talk) 10:21, 31 May 2016 (UTC)

People with gender dysphoria often aren't sure exactly what they are. Sometimes they do know inside, but don't want to admit it. Transgender people have made the step to definitively say they are a woman/man/etc. inside. Many of them have already transitioned or started to transition. Does that clear things up? Pbfreespace3 (talk) 10:26, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
That clears up the terminology I guess. I probably won't ever understand many other aspects of this issue. B4Xiphos (talk) 13:15, 31 May 2016 (UTC)