Talk:Nationalism

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Liberal nationalist? I must admit that's an interesting concept. But that probably only shows my sheltered upbringing.--Bob^{'s your uncle} 14:32, 23 September 2007 (EDT)

I can't remember the names now (the class I took was about 5 years ago) but there many in China, in particular, who were extremely nationalistic but wanted to help their "nation" by adopting "advanced Western" techniques of governance--things like a parliament, personal rights, etc. I also *think* that there were some similar nationalists in Korea. I should try to look some of them up in order to find out their names.Researcher 21:59, 23 September 2007 (EDT)

Even dictionaries published in Britain define "nation" as "country". From whence this "popular American usage"? PoorEd 16:03, 13 February 2008 (EST)

I've rewritten the article, but included virtually all of what was there already - just rearranged & expanded. The major problem it had was confusing different types of nationalism, & defining all nationalism as a belief in the superiority of one's nation, when in fact this is only one definition of nationalism (e.g. that of the Nazis) & misrepresents other forms of national struggle (e.g. that of Kurdish nationalism). weaseLOId~ 20:01, 18 September 2008 (EDT)

Opening articles with quotes

While the idea may be good, the layout begs something. The template used doesn't make in narrower than the rest of the text, and doesn't look very good. Ideas? ħuman 10:23, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Liberal vs. Leftist

I'd used the term liberal quite specifically--these were not people seeking an egalitarian economic state or the death of capitalism, but rather people campaigning for political rights such as the right to vote, representation, and a lack of central control by the imperial family. The liberal nationalists I was writing about were specifically 19th century liberals opposed to the imperial Chinese system. It would be completely wrong to refer to them as "leftists". (Mossadegh *might* qualify, but even then I deeply doubt it.) Researcher (talk) 04:11, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Okay. I still think "liberal" is a hard term to use specifically in an informal context like this, especially considering our STRONG anti-CP/Andy Schlafly orientation, and what "liberal" means in contemporary US-centric political discourse. P-Foster (talk) 04:44, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

P-Foster, I'm with you on this (and especially considering the state of our liberal article). Of course, the whole point of bringing it up to begin with is to show that, in some cultures, our ideas of what goes together (conservatives are nationalists, liberals are in favor of some kind of world government) fall apart entirely. I think, as per my talk page, rewriting the liberal page will do more. Researcher (talk) 12:37, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Where I live the murdering Basque nationalists who make up ETA are usually communist, or at least strongly anti-capitalist. Having said that they refer to themselves - without any apparent sense of irony - as "nationalist socialists" On the other hand the somewhat more mainstream PNV (Basque nationalist party) has a right-wing Christian ideology.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 13:00, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Link to essay?

What's RW's policy (if any) on linking to essays? I ask because I want to link to mine. The article on vegetarianism includes a link to AD's essay on vegetarianism.--Кřěĵ (ṫåɬк) 00:38, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I think it's an interesting essay to link to, so I would support that. Nullahnung (talk) 01:46, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Also, mental illness denial links to Essay:Anti-Psychiatry Arguments and Essay:Explaining the fall of Popper; Bayesian links to Essay:Bayesian Inference and the Power of Skepticism; and Neoreactionary movement links to Essay:Abrechnung mit Reaktion.--Кřěĵ (ṫåɬк) 05:11, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

I have seen essays linked usually either when there's no opposition to it or when there's a compromise between those who want the essay and the others. I think that's what we do here. Nullahnung (talk) 08:35, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Interesting quotes for reference that I can't find a place to put in mainspace (from here):

“”It is certainly true that, within Spanish America, there were no clear differences of identity between the populations of the embyronic states which were starting to emerge around the various important urban centers. In all the Spanish American states, the construction of differences, which would end up turning the citizens of the various new states into foreigners amongst themselves, was accomplished by several means of indoctrination, including the educational system and conscription. With all these nations being so similar, the main difference between them could not lie in anything else than the virtue of the in-group and the malevolence of the Other. It is through the creation of this image that the pan-Latin American protonationality at the time of independence was destroyed, and it is thus that new local identities emerged, invented by a political power that had relatively contingently (that is, without causal links to previous identity phenomena) succeeded in establishing its rule over a given territorial jurisdiction. Unfortunately, these identities couldn't be constructed by means of positive definitions. It was the social construction of the vile character of the states and populations of the contiguous and autonomous political units that allowed the emergence of the various "us", due to which we can now speak of the Argentinian, Uruguayan, Paraguayan, Chilean, Bolivian, Peruan, Ecuadorian, Venezuelan and Colombian "nationalities" as being differentiated amongst themselves. Original in Spanish: Por cierto, dentro de la América española, no había diferencias de identidad claras entre las poblaciones de los Estados embrionarios que irían emergiendo en torno de los diferentes centros urbanos importantes. En todos los Estados hispanoamericanos la construcción de diferencias, que terminaría por convertir a los ciudadanos de los diversos nuevos Estados en extranjeros entre sí, se consiguió a través de varios mecanismos de adoctrinamiento, entre ellos el sistema educativo y el servicio militar obligatorio. Existiendo tal exceso de cosas compartidas, la principal diferencia no podía ser sino la virtud propia y la malevolencia ajena. Con esta imagen se destruyó aquella protonacionalidad panhispanoamericana de los tiempos de la Independencia, y de este modo emergieron nuevas identidades locales, inventadas desde un poder político que en forma relativamente contingente (es decir, sin vínculos causales con fenómenos identitarios previos) había logrado el dominio sobre determinada jurisdición territorial. Lamentablemente, estas identidades no podían construirse a través de definiciones positivas. Fue la construcción social del carácter vil del Estado y población de las unidades políticas contiguas y autónomas lo que permitió la emergencia de los diversos "nosotros", que hoy nos permiten hablar de las "nacionalidades" argentina, uruguaya, paraguaya, chilena, boliviana, peruana, ecuatoriana, venezolana y colombiana, como diferenciadas entre sí.

“”Even when it doesn't mobilize the masses to march to their deaths, nationalism continuously demonstrates its vitality in circumstances in which it can be said that "objectively" a supposed nation does not exist. Objectively, the Argentinian nation is a fairy tale, yet there are few Porteños [inhabitants of Buenos Aires] who, faced with a poster of the Undersecretary of Tourism which boasts a picture of the waterfalls of Iguazú with the slogan "first, it was ours," would realize the fact that these waterfalls are in reality much less "theirs" (that is to say, somehow specific to Porteños) than the well-loved Colonia del Sacramento, which lies on the other side of the Río de la Plata in Uruguayan territory. The type of people, the culture, the same musicality of the language, indeed everything except one anthropologically irrelevant juridical fact, makes Colonia part of the same objective "nation" as Buenos Aires, while Puerto Iguazú is part of another (Spanish-Guarani) nation that is fairly different. What is "ours" about the waterfalls of Iguazú? Do we pay fewer taxes than a Paraguayan when we visit it? Is the trip cheaper? Clearly not. For the Porteño, the waterfalls are in a distant land inhabited by an exotic people. But the poster successfully works its effect on the reader, because the mechanisms of indoctrination which allow Porteños and inhabitants of Misiones [a province in Argentina] to imagine that they are part of a single nation that is different from the Uruguayan and Paraguayan nations are surprisingly successful. Original in Spanish: Incluso cuando no moviliza masas a la muerte, el nacionalismo continuamente demuestra su vitalidad en circunstancias en que se puede afirmar que "objetivamente" una supuesta nación no existe. Objetivamente la nación argentina es puro cuento, pero son pocos los porteños que, frente a un afiche de la Subsecretaría de Turismo de la Nación que porta una foto de las cataratas del Iguazú junto con el lema "primero lo nuestro", se percatan del hecho de que en realidad esas cataratas son mucho menos "suyas" (es decir de algún modo propias de los porteños) que la bienamada Colonia del Sacramento, que queda del otro lado del río en territorio uruguayo. El tipo de gente, la cultura, la misma musicalidad de la lengua, por cierto que todo excepto un hecho jurídico que es antropológicamente irrelevante, hace de Colonia parte de una misma "nación" objetiva que Buenos Aires, a la vez que Puerto Iguazú es parte de otra nación (hispano-guaranítica) bastante diferente. ¿Qué tienen de "nuestras" las cataratas del Iguazú? ¿Pagamos menos impuestos que un paraguayo al visitarlas? ¿Nos sale más barato el pasaje? Obviamente no. Para un porteño, están en una tierra lejana habitada por un pueblo exótico. Pero el afiche surte efecto, porque los mecanismos de adoctrinamiento que permiten a porteños y misioneros imaginar que son parte de una misma nación, que es diferente de las naciones uruguaya y paraguaya, son sorprendentemente exitosos.

--Кřěĵ (ṫåɬк) 07:36, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

A particularly (Anglo?)American usage of nationalism?

I'm struck by the way nationalism/nationalist is used here on RW as it seems to be in the "bad" sense that would probably be better described, I think, as (national) chauvinism or jingoism. Is this a particular RW thing or a U.S. (UK?) one? The thing is, that I know of plenty of people outside of the Anglosphere who might describe themselves as nationalists in the sense that RW employs patriotism, whereas in these circumstances the word patriot, ironically, seems to be more apt to be used by the extreme nationalists (inverting the good/bad categories and raising the spectre of Samuel Johnson's famous adage about patriotism being "the last refuge of a scoundrel"), though I think that nationalist used in this way might be on the decline as it seems to become more intimately tied to far right/populist (in the sense of anti-elite) right political parties. ScepticWombat (talk) 11:00, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Additional quote?

Illustrates the point quite well, if there is room from one of my favourite films (Network) "You are an old man who thinks in terms of nations and peoples. There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multivariate, multinational dominion of dollars." I understand if there isn't room Threadnaught (talk) 14:27, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Do not get mad at me, but I myself see the mainstream "thinkers" of this generation as more narrow minded than nationalists.

Greetings. I believe nowadays we became too narrow minded to think about any other beliefs than the ones we commonly believe in. We are not immune to propaganda. 217.128.167.152 (talk) 14:59, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Shut the hell up. 47.148.108.245 (talk) 18:52, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Category:Anti-imperialism

Although this category has been maintained for a long time, it is constantly being eliminated by Plutocow.

The Algerian independence movement to become independent from the French colonial state is "Algerian nationalism". The Korean independence movement to become independent from the Japanese colonial state is "Korean nationalism". Umaru16 (talk) 21:26, 9 August 2024 (UTC)