Talk:Simon Webb/Archive1

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Unreliable Afrocentrism sources

The article heavily relies on an Afrocentric YouTube channel [1] and unreliable Afrocentric Tiktok users like Admire Kashiri [2] who is cited 7 times as a source on the article. These are not academic historians. Why are we citing a kook on TikTok as a source?

Simon Webb obviously has his own agenda, but we are not doing any favours by linking to equally biased and unreliable content. Johns (talk) 13:43, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree that Admire Kashiri is definitely biased in his critiques against Webb, but the former is definitely NOT Afrocentric, as he is far more nuanced and actually provides counterarguments against both Afrocentric and Eurocentric talking points. DaRealPrinceZuko (talk) 00:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

The YouTube account FromNothing is a promoter of pseudohistory, he is no different than Simon Webb. Just one quick example as dozens could be given, he argues that modern vaccination originated in Africa [3]. This is false. What his video is discussing is not modern vaccination, it is variolation. The earliest records of variolation have been traced to China in 1549 [4]. FromNothing, the guy who runs that YouTube channel claims variolation was being practiced "at least" 1700 in West Africa, he then says it probably predates this in Africa but gives no evidence. He doesn't mention China because it would contradict his biased viewpoint. He provides no peer-reviewed historical papers or reliable documentation to back up anything he says. At 5:36 his source is an "Unkonwn African woman 1892", the guy doesn't even factually check his videos because he left an obvious spelling mistake. I couldn't care less about spelling but if you are making a historic video you would have thought it would have been checked. There is no evidence this source is specifically from 1892, if you Google the quote it is mentioned in this paper [5] as a "first-hand account by a Hausa woman recalling her childhood in the 1890s". An anonymous lady recalling her childhood is hardly a reliable historical source. FromNothing links to no sources and pulls the 1892 date out of his ass. His research is shoddy.

The Chinese were practicing variolation in the 1500s, that is well documented. To claim that "modern vaccination" originated in Africa is nonsense, it is a fantasy. If you look in the comment section of his video, it is all Afrocentrists uprating the video, making comments such as "you should be writing the curriculum about black history in schools. Too often they focus on falsehoods designed to boost self esteem while ignoring real black history like this". If you check Simon Webb's videos all the comments are from advocates of Eurocentrism. The agenda here is to distort history through a racial lens. Just with 20 minutes research I am able to debunk FromNothing's nonsense, the guy isn't interested in factual research. This is the problem of biased racial obsessions. Simon Webb is on the opposite end of the extreme, he wants to claim white European people are the best, the FromNothing guy wants to claim black Africans are the best. You can't win with these kinds of extremists. Let's keep things factual and not cite internet kooks as sources. Johns (talk) 02:45, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Have you checked his other content to confirm that he's a promoter of Afrocentric pseudohistory, rather than this video merely being an isolated incident of historical errors and him just ignoring the comments you provided? He also literally clarified in one of his videos that he only wants to provide factual information on African history and demonstrated that he despises Afrocentric pseudohistory.

From Nothing's sources (point 30): https://www.fromnothing.info/sources

Toxic Afrocentric talking points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWKbs1YthYs

Channel introduction (0:48 and 4:49): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUPZq23snBQ

Critiquing Afrocentric and Eurocentric pseudohistory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ipdOqBU97o

Critiquing the "Black Native Americans" myth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu51hmtNqcc DaRealPrinceZuko (talk) 03:05, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I have listened to some of these. He doesn't criticize Afrocentrism per se, what he criticizes is the more looney claims of recent Afrocentrists who start claiming all civilizations were started by Africans and those who only focus on Egypt. For example, Egmond Codfried and Clyde Winters claim literally every civilization and population from the past were black Africans. FromNothing criticizes other Afrocentrists for "trying to steal the history of others". He is correct about this. It's get to a comedy point of view when they are claiming the Native Americans or Nordic Vikings were black. FromNothing mostly focuses on West/Central African history. He's also correct that many Afrocentrists only focus on Egypt and Nubia whilst ignoring the bulk of African history. Whilst this guy might be more sane than someone like Clyde Winters, at the end of the day he is still re-writing his own history to make himself feel better about the world. The vaccination video was a red flag for me. Africans did not invent or pioneer vaccination. I don't have time to look through this any more because this topic really doesn't interest me, but I suspect that many of his other videos contain false information about who really invented what. As stated, Simon Webb does the same thing. Johns (talk) 03:39, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

You don't have to review his other work at the moment, but you can't just assume that his agenda in his other videos, just because of some factual errors in his vaccination video. You only provided one isolated incident in regards to From Nothing in contrast to numerous cases about Simon Webb. You're grossly extrapolating from one flawed analysis onto his whole work.

He also stated that his goal is not to exaggerate or embellish African accomplishments in my third point, nor is it to promote hatred towards white people, which contradicts your claim of him being an Afrocentrist just trying to make the black diaspora feel better about their heritage. You also never seemed to question yourself whether or not his vaccination video was a deliberate historical falsification or just merely a mistake or series of factual errors, even though my first point reveals the sources he used for his video. Also, even though he mostly focuses on Sub-Saharan history, he also provides some historical examples of Eurasian and American history to back up his claims. Also, even if the Chinese also did variolation, would that really disprove the notion that the western tradition traces back to Africa (or the Ottoman Empire), based on the sources he provided? Additionally, vaccination and variolation are not the same; variolation is the practice of intentionally exposing a person to material taken from another infected person and was often lethal, whereas vaccination is using a weakened version of the pathogen (originally a non-human one) to prepare the body for future casual exposure and was significantly safer, even though both are forms of inoculation. DaRealPrinceZuko (talk) 04:15, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

FromNothing doesn't cite any sources, if you want to know his sources you have to go and look them up and try and find them yourself. This isn't the way academia works. This source you cite from the African Studies Center [6] says "By 1700, there is record of West African people using the practice of inoculation". So what? China was doing that in the 1500s but FromNothing doesn't mention this. He says modern vaccination originated in Africa, his video title is pure fantasy. You are correct vaccination and variolation are not the same but this guy seems to confuse them. Africa did not pioneer modern vaccination. No historian would claim that.

Here another example, his video "Ancient Link Between Japanese and African People?" [7] contains no reliable sources and most of the people leaving comments on it are Afrocentrists claiming Asians were black. It basically consists of him comparing some sculpture and statue heads claiming African statues have "Asiatic features". This is typical Afrocentric nonsense and is also similar to how other pseudohistorians operate like Graham Hancock.

At 8:58 in the video he puts a picture of a Yoruba statue and a Japanese statue together as a "comparison" to prove they have the same facial characteristics. In reality the alleged "Japanese" sculpture he cites is not Japanese. It was a soldier from the Terracotta Army. These terracotta sculptures are from the armies of Qin Shi Huang, the first emperor of China. FromNothing doesn't cite any dates or academic sources. FromNothing confuses Japanese with Chinese. If you compare both sculptures, they do not look similar at all. FromNothing has since apologized calling this an "honest mistake". His videos are filled with mistakes like this.

Another bizarre video is [8] "When Africans Ruled India". There is not any evidence that "Africans ruled India". His video does not cite any sources. At 4:59 in the video FromNothing starts advertising some naturopathy products, it turns out he is sponsored by a company called "Happy Hippo Herbals". This guy is not an academic or qualified historian, he is a peddler of all kinds of woo. As stated he doesn't cite any peer-reviewed articles or academic historical works to back up anything he says. If you want to learn about history just read a mainstream history textbook. At RationalWiki we are not going to support this guy because he is not on the side of science. FromNothing may qualify for an article here at RationalWiki. I could easily create an article debunking all of his shite. The question is, do I really want to waste my time doing this? He only gets around 3K views for most of his recent videos. He's a nobody. This is a guy who confuses Chinese and Japanese statues and tries to pass them off as African. He is a nutcase. I think Simon Webb is more sane than this guy, and that is saying something! Johns (talk) 13:11, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

He literally does cite sources. The problem is the way he utilizes them by not citing them in the video. The sources I gave you were literally the same sources he provided on his website linked to his vaccination video. The reason why he says that they invented inoculation is because they developed it completely independent from foreign influences, not because it predates Chinese methods. It's no different to saying that the Chinese and some Native American groups independently developed their own forms of civilization and agriculture, despite the fact that both of those aspects can be traced to the Fertile Crescent as the place where they were first developed. He did not say that vaccination solely originated in Africa; he said that it was independently developed without evidence of foreign influence. Also, if it was the case that Africa did not pioneer vaccination, why did a slave named Onesimus introduce the method of inoculation to his master, Cotton Mather during a smallpox epidemic in Boston in 1721?

You're right that the video does not provide reliable sources, but this problem was rectified in his later videos. Besides, the video was not about a historical topic, but rather personal opinions about striking similarities between African and Japanese cultures. He literally clarified in his video that he did not make said video to perpetuate a definitive narrative of African-Japanese contact, just cultural similarities. I also reviewed the comment section and hardly any of them come from an Afrocentric viewpoint, as some of them are just expressing personal opinions they find fascinating about Japanese and African cultures. Your previous statement of him focusing mostly on Sub-Saharan history is not proof of his Afrocentric nature either, as there are historians who do focus primarily on certain cultures (i.e. Charles C. Mann on Native American history). From Nothing's opinions on African and Japanese culture and history would be no different from me comparing Native American cultures to East Asian civilizations (i.e. comparing Comanches to Mongols).

The fact that he provided a comparison between an East Asian sculpture and an African one to analyze the similarities between the two does not mean that he did it as "proof" that they were the same. Again, he was just expressing his personal opinions. His confusion with a Chinese sculpture with a Japanese one is not proof that this is a regular occurrence.

You base your criticism of the video solely on the title of the video, rather than addressing the actual content of the video itself (save for the Happy Hippo Herbals advertisement). He literally stated in several of his videos that the indigenous black populations of Southeast Asia and Oceania are more genetically and culturally related to peoples of India than those of Africa. He also cites the Aksum coins found in India, along with the voluntary and involuntary migration of East Africans to India. You also ignored his point about the Bengal Sultan possessing an army of African slaves. In his other videos, he mentioned that a offshoot of East African migrants known as the Siddi people formed their own kingdom known as the Janjira state in the 15th century.

You state multiple times that he does not cite any sources to his videos, but the evidence proves otherwise. You neglected to check the sources provided on his website and you neglected to check the sources I cited from the original website. You are either being maliciously and willfully ignorant or you're lying by omission. Your entire perspective on his channel relies on nothing more than a complete strawman based entirely on nutpicking, insinuations and black swan fallacies. DaRealPrinceZuko (talk) 21:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

"His confusion with a Chinese sculpture with a Japanese one is not proof that this is a regular occurrence". Yes it is. If this Afrocentrist YouTuber you keep quoting knew anything about history he would have known the sculpture was from the Terracotta Army collection. He would have also listed his source for the photograph and the date but he doesn't because he isn't interested in facts. You say this YouTuber cites sources, he doesn't list any in the descriptions of his videos. He cites no peer-reviewed literature. You say the sources are on his website. I have not read his website and don't need to. He is not a historian. You mention a lot of things above without any sourcing.

Edward Jenner created the world's first successful vaccine [9]. No academic historians would claim that Africa or Onesimus pioneered "modern vaccination". He was influential in promoting the procedure of variolation in 1721. As you have already acknowledged, variolation has been around since the 1500s. Both China and India were practicing variolation before Africa. The fact that you are so obsessed with defending this YouTube channel leads me to believe that you are the owner of it. It's obvious you have got into a slap-fight with Simon Webb so you wanted to create an article about him here. This isn't a website to carry out your personal feuds. Johns (talk) 04:46, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

I am gonna cite the 'Sagan Standard' here; that claims made against the consenus on anything [qv: Jenner and modern vaccination] needs more evidence than a rando YT channel with suspicious/missing reliable sources to back them up. Even more importantly, it has been conceeded that said YT is at least partly 'personal opinion' which they are free to hold but not to be used as RW refs backing up stuff like historical facts.

Telling another RWian to basically 'do their own research' is not applicable in this case. In my opinion, you're not meant to have to do your own research regarding refrences. They're kinda supposed to be the research, or more correctly pointing to summeries etc of them.

The section in question I have objections to in general; there's at least two statements which at best slur over the circumstantial evidence Webb presents. It's important we have our ducks in a row here, lest Webb et all cherrypick the dodgy bit and then claim 'the exception proves the rule' and similar. KarmaPolice (talk) 10:20, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

No it is not. He literally demonstrated in his video that it wasn't a historical topic, but rather his personal opinions on different cultures, which, again, would be no different from me comparing Native Americans to East Asian civilizations. In his Afrocentric and Eurocentric racism video, he clarified that there is no evidence that there is any connection between West Africans and East Asian sailors [10] (3:36). "He cites no peer-reviewed literature. You say the sources are on his website. I have not read his website and don't need to." This is literally no different to how Kurzgesagt cites his sources. And yes, he does cite peer-reviewed literature on his website directly linked to his videos since at least 2018 [11], such as this one [12]. Also, how would you even know that he doesn't cite peer-reviewed literature if you haven't even read his website? Also, he did cite peer-reviewed literature on this video [13] (0:50). "No academic historians would claim that Africa or Onesimus pioneered "modern vaccination"". This claim relies heavily on the Black swan fallacy. Again, the fact that he didn't cite China in his video is irrelevant, as he wasn't claiming that Africans were the first to pioneer vaccination, but rather they developed it independently, which is no different to saying that the Chinese were responsible for inventing their own forms of civilization and agriculture, even if they were first developed in the Fertile Crescent. Have you ever heard of the concept of Cradles of Civilization [14]? You claimed at one point that he invented the 1892 date out of thin air, even though it comes from this source [15]. "The fact that you are so obsessed with defending this YouTube channel leads me to believe that you are the owner of it. It's obvious you have got into a slap-fight with Simon Webb so you wanted to create an article about him here. This isn't a website to carry out your personal feuds." I literally debunked your claims of him being Afrocentric, which you conveniently ignored to rationalize your own opinions on him by expressing your distaste and you accuse me of picking a feud with you? If you are so desperate to discredit From Nothing, we might as well use the sources from his own website.

I didn't tell him to do his own research. I provided counterevidence against his claims, which he ignored. DaRealPrinceZuko (talk) 18:21, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Response by Simon Webb

Simon Webb has made a video response to RationalWiki https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WEoey2LFMk 134.209.182.231 (talk) 00:29, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Welp, time to write something about him at RationalWiki:Pissed at us. --Luigifan18 (talk) 20:25, 6 March 2024 (UTC)