Denmark and Sweden

Jump to navigation Jump to search

Denmark and Sweden

Do you know anything about why Denmark and Sweden are successful as secular countries?

Proxima Centauri (talk)19:05, 28 June 2012

They were barely Christianized, for starters.

Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX19:24, 28 June 2012
 

Denmark has Lutheranism as its state religion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Denmark so, yeah, secular. Nice research, Proxima.

Sophiebecause liberals20:02, 28 June 2012

An established church means that the church is under state control. It does not mean that the country's law in general is anything but secular. This is, after all, Lutheranism we are talking about here...

Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX20:13, 28 June 2012

There's so many reasons, though I think LX comments (oh crap, first Roberts, now i agree with LX, it really is the end of times) are probably the best answer.

But you also have to look at size of the countries, proximity to the so-called atheist russia, general focus on culture over religion, economic and education levels (both of which, being highly subsidized states, are very sound and important).

Green mowse.pngGodotFire! Fire! Fire! (please send spare firefighters)20:16, 28 June 2012
Proxima Centauri (talk)04:53, 29 June 2012

Phil Zuckerman is a good writer and researcher, so his book should be an interesting read. That said, I'm not sure you can extract "what we can learn about contentment" from non-religious societies and come away with anything fruitful, since by and large, societies are built over hundreds of generations, including in all cases, religious ones.

The separate article "Secularism - the case in Denmark" is pretty light on anything really useful to say. It's trying hard to make a claim about what being a Dane is, while stripping from Danes the fact that they were largely religious and pagan for so long, it permeates their national views.

I think one thing you want to consider when making a claim that religion (lack or presence) effects the wealth, the development, the education system , and corruption (and not the other way around) is to look at France. France has now and has had the highest rate of atheism in Europe. It has had and has now one of the most secular governments regarding how decisions are made, what is taught in school, etc. Yet it is largely stricken by economic woes, it has a high level of internal political corruption, there is a large trend towards "nationalism" (FN for example). And their high quality education system is falling apart in lower income banlieue and rural areas.

So while I think it's an interesting thing to explore, I don't think it can be as simple as "religion cause" or "secularism causes".

However, if your argument is "society can function just fine and totally morally without religion", then yes, these would be good sources, cause that's what they show.

Green mowse.pngGodotFire! Fire! Fire! (please send spare firefighters)05:41, 29 June 2012
  1. Yes I know my sources prove that society can function well without religion and that’s a powerful argument for atheists and other freethinkers worldwide.
  2. I think the sources I cited above give inconclusive evidence that secular societies do better than religious societies. More research is needed for this and I plan to spend some time on this research.
  3. There is, I feel strong evidence that religious fundamentalism and Christian fundamentalism is harmful. Look at the social problems in the United States Bible Belt for example.
  4. It’s less clear in my opinion whether Liberal Christianity, Cafeteria Christianity Fast-food Christianity and the like are harmful. I have respect for small numbers of Christian groups, notably the Methodists and the Quakers.
Proxima Centauri (talk)07:04, 29 June 2012

What is the time in your time zone of the United States? It’s 8 o’clock in the morning in Britain. I didn’t expect a reply till early afternoon here. Yes I know the knife edge decision by SCOTUS yesterday was exciting but the body needs sleep.

Proxima Centauri (talk)07:06, 29 June 2012

The problem you are making is easy to make. You are confusing causation with coloration. There is no reason to think that a secular society functions better without religion. France is a perfect example. There is no reason to think a religious society functions better. Afghanistan is a perfect example. Because of the serious amount of factors, there is no way to draw any kind of conclusion about religion and society.

You mention the south. You blame the problems of the south on fundamentalism, with out recognizing that the fundamentalism could be the RESULT of the social problems. Why is the south drawn to fundimentalism in teh first place? They were not always so religious. Why is denmark not drawn to religion, this was not always their case.

I'm 8 hours earlier than France. But i never remeber if UK is the same as France or an hour earlier.

Green mowse.pngGodotFire! Fire! Fire! (please send spare firefighters)07:14, 29 June 2012

There's a reason it's called the fallacy of the single causeWikipedia.

Nebuchadnezzar (talk)07:19, 29 June 2012
 
 

The social problems in the Bible Belt, I think, have more to do with poverty and racism than Christianity. Remember what Martin Luther King, Jr.'s occupation was.

Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX07:13, 29 June 2012

You're right in Social Science things can rarely be simplified down to a single cause. That's why research is needed. Incidentally how far is France secular and how far is France still Roman Catholic?

Proxima Centauri (talk)07:52, 29 June 2012

It's not really "that research is needed". I'm not sure how you even *can* research it.

I'm also personally bothered by your use of "religion", when you say "to find out if religion is harmful or not". Which religion? The Methodist Church down the block that holds formal "Tea servie" every tuesday at three? The New Age religions that are basically self-help be happy and buy tarot cards. The Mosque in canada that meets in the choir room of a local church which also doubles as the school house? Shinto religions that ask you to respect and "worship" nature? The 3 kids who call themselves "satanists" to piss off mom and dad?

Even "organized religion" varies far and wide from church to church. But you lump them all together and say "is religion good or bad".


As for France, simply because of their intellectual traditions, the community at large has little place of discussions of religion in schools, in government, or in any public section. To the point of saying "no teach may wear any symbol of a religion at any time during the day". compared to say Denmark's 19% self identified "non religion, non god" people, france has 31%. another roughly 40% that say something like "there might be, whatever, doesn't really impact me", and 30% who attend church or mosque.

Green mowse.pngGodotFire! Fire! Fire! (please send spare firefighters)13:56, 29 June 2012

Hell, if you want to know if religion is "good" or "bad", fuck the definition of religion, you're going to have to spend 95% of your effort properly defining "good" and "bad" things, and then you'll suddenly notice that things like supporting a football team is a "bad" thing, or voting for a political party is a "bad" thing.

Scarlet A.pnggnostic16:14, 29 June 2012

And you have the problamatic situation in China and Russia where at least one generation if not two were raised formally atheists - and look where both of them are on 1) education, 2)commerce, 3) basic human rights (sex slavery, anyone?)

Or is someone going to argue the time honored "but communism is virtually a religion" line.

Green mowse.pngGodotFire! Fire! Fire! (please send spare firefighters)16:43, 29 June 2012

China is only nominally communist today, though. And Russia -- not even close.

Nebuchadnezzar (talk)17:58, 29 June 2012

So they are fucked up, and there's no religion to blame. Personally, I think i'm goign to research that atheism is what made them worse.

Green mowse.pngGodotFire! Fire! Fire! (please send spare firefighters)18:25, 29 June 2012

I heard Hitler was an atheist as well. Probably gay as well.

Nebuchadnezzar (talk)18:43, 29 June 2012

And Germany has a tradition similar to France of being highly academic, philosphical, and rather anti-religion in the schools and all. Clearly, that caused hitler, which is clear proof how much society needs religion!

I'm on to something here. wonder how much I can make publishing a book.

Green mowse.pngGodotFire! Fire! Fire! (please send spare firefighters)18:46, 29 June 2012

I've been toying around with the idea of making some cash on the side by writing a book about how liberals are Nazis. Oh wait... Okay, what about conservatives then? Ffffuu...

Nebuchadnezzar (talk)18:51, 29 June 2012

Well, there is a new book coming out about Fast and Furious being a liberal conspiracy theory (I'm dead serious) to somehow make the country more "pro gun control". the NRA is up in arms about this, demanding to see Holder's papers, to prove that it's a conspiracy.


I was talking to some people in the facebook "conspiracy theorists say the darnedest things", adn they AGREED it was likely a conspiracy.... sighs.... people really do turn off their so called analytical skills when their political party is involved, don't they. (me too. I think obama is teh best, and won't let anyone say otherwise. heh)

Green mowse.pngGodotFire! Fire! Fire! (please send spare firefighters)19:01, 29 June 2012

And we know who else liked gun control, right?

Nebuchadnezzar (talk)19:03, 29 June 2012

Oh, SNAP. it's so obvious. how did I not see it. thank god it's not november yet, and i can still change my vote.


Romney 2012

Green mowse.pngGodotFire! Fire! Fire! (please send spare firefighters)19:17, 29 June 2012
 
 
 

You can make a packet of money if you know how to write scary stuff with good academic words included so it reads professional. Pseudoscience sells very well.

Warning RationalWiki will write an article about that book and your readers won't like that article.

Proxima Centauri (talk)19:56, 29 June 2012

So, apparently, do both "anti religion" and "anti atheism" books. :-)

seems everyone is all too happy to point fingers, and far less people want to look at a more rational, reasonable, balanced view of "the Other" or simply the world's problems.

Green mowse.pngGodotFire! Fire! Fire! (please send spare firefighters)20:17, 29 June 2012

Problems all have the same root cause: fucking idiocy.

Scarlet A.pngpostate22:47, 29 June 2012

The root cause of fucking idiocy, though, is believing you are exempt from acting like a fucking idiot.

Nebuchadnezzar (talk)23:47, 29 June 2012

Precisely.

Scarlet A.pngpathetic01:01, 30 June 2012
 
 

Some people care a great deal about religion because they are devout believers. Other people are anti-religious because religious people have hurt them or have hurt friends, family in the name of religion. What proportion of those who hate religion have been hurt that way I don't know.

Proxima Centauri (talk)02:00, 30 June 2012

of those who *Hate* religion? probably quite a few. Most grownups who have simply come to the idea that religion isn't right for them, and that there is no god, have no need to *hate* religion. They don't tend to say things like "all religion is bad", or work to stop religion. they don't actual proselytize.

Green mowse.pngGodotFire! Fire! Fire! (please send spare firefighters)02:09, 30 June 2012
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Edited by author.
Last edit: 09:00, 30 June 2012

The link below has information about the college where Zuckerman is a professor and a list of publications.

Proxima Centauri (talk)02:43, 30 June 2012

Prox, you don't need to obsess over Scandinavia if you want to disprove the connection between religion and morality even on a sociological basis. Read this paper by Rodney Stark.

Nebuchadnezzar (talk)02:53, 30 June 2012

How do i get the Rodney Stark text large enough to read?

Proxima Centauri (talk)09:05, 30 June 2012

First, print it out. Second, borrow your grandparents' text magnifier.

Star of David.png Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments.09:27, 30 June 2012

"An emergent page saves me having to explain what ZOOM means, using small English words, a measure of patience and a length of plastic hose." [1]

Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX21:23, 1 July 2012

I think zoom has been disabled on that page.

Proxima Centauri (talk)15:37, 2 July 2012

It's a pdf.

Green mowse.pngGodotFire! Fire! Fire! (please send spare firefighters)15:41, 2 July 2012
 
 
 
 
 

Am I supposed to understand why you posted his name and linked to his page?

Green mowse.pngGodotFire! Fire! Fire! (please send spare firefighters)04:04, 30 June 2012
 

Yes, we can read. And?

Green mowse.pngGodotFire! Fire! Fire! (please send spare firefighters)15:14, 30 June 2012
 
 
 
 
 

And even in Sweden there is a Scout organisation that is very preachy and fundie (at least by Scandinavian standards). The other four take the piss by referring to them as "The God Squad". In reality it's as "secular" as anywhere else in Europe.

Scarlet A.pngmoral09:54, 29 June 2012