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RationalWiki talk:Community Standards

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For the discussion and voting on the accountability rules for techs, see this archive.
For the discussion and voting on changes proposed in May 2020, see this archive.
For the rewrites and their discussions during January 2009, see the revamp and its talk page and archive, an early draft here, and further discussions here, plus the voting discussion.

Collapse template[edit]

We need to have a major conversation about the excessive use of the {{collapse}} template. It causes disruption in most cases rather than solving anything. I see it being used as a muzzle rather than an attempt to clarify things. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 04:44, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

GR you created your own template which is designed to stop conversations instead of clarifying things. ShabiDOO 05:25, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
Shabidoo, does said template cause edit warring?--Hastur! (talk) 05:35, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
How does {{verygood}} censor people? it's supposed to be a sarcastic joke. that's all. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 05:40, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
As I clearly and unambiguously said it is "designed to stop conversations instead of clarifying things" I did not say censor. Please don't put words in my mouth. Your template is designed to deflect, avoid and stop a conversation instead of responding to people. You have used it multiple times to avoid clearing up a valid problem, question, criticism or responses. So if you are serious about fostering a better atmosphere of "clarifying things" then you can lead by example and delete that stupid template of yours. ShabiDOO 06:11, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
You are a sysop, you can delete it yourself if you desperately want it gone? β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 06:13, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
And that's why it's hard to take your concerns here seriously GR. ShabiDOO 06:22, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
??? 1. You are a sysop 2. It's a public template 3. Thus you can delete it. You don't need me to do it for you, do you? β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 06:23, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) If Raven doesn't desire to respond to a particular post, that is fine. I do not see his cesium template as being on the same level as the collapse template. The cesium template is clearly meant to reflect his own opinion, and perhaps his own decision not to pursue a particular conversation, ergo nobody edit wars with him over it. The collapse template is meant to represent a shaming from the entire community, as well as shutting down a discussion for the whole community, and thus is far more controversial. This is why I oppose using the collapse template but not GR's cesium template. Edit: Not that I am defending or encouraging the cesium template. Rather I tolerate its existence--Hastur! (talk) 06:26, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
Since he was ambivalent as to what happened to it, I have deleted Raven's verygood template. Spud (talk) 06:33, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
And it's been immediately restored (but not by Raven). Spud (talk) 06:35, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
That was a mistake. You can delete it again if you feel strongly about it--Hastur! (talk) 06:36, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
I really don't feel particularly strongly about it, But I've deleted it again anyway. That's the last time I'll do that. Spud (talk) 06:41, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜ Now that we got rid of that tiny problem Shabidoo had, can we talk about how the {{collapse}} template is overused? β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 06:45, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Spud you are a legend ShabiDOO 06:56, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Shabidoo's perspective[edit]

The collapse template is extremely useful especially for toxic content. I agree, to a small extent with GR that it has been a little over used recently, but I think his claim that it has been "excessive" is pretty exaggerated. Though in the case to today and yesterday's Salon "sea lioning" or "concern trolling" posts, it would have been wiser to have just put up the seal lioning template as we used to do back when Unlicensed Thinker was sea-lioning the shit out of the Saloon. But I still think the majority of collapsing has been sound judgement call but I agree that a little (and only a little) more restraint would be a good idea and using warning templates instead of collapsing whenever possible. ShabiDOO 06:56, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Lure2.png Caution: BAITING HEAD!

This topic was added to provoke a reaction, not to inform or start a discussion

I've created a template for Baiting as some of the recent shit is more baiting than concern trolling or sea-lioning. ShabiDOO 07:50, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, this is clearly worse than my template. Let alone how that yellow stings in my eyes. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 08:02, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
First of all, templates made for talk pages are best small. Such as Template:dftt. Second of all, I'm not fond of templates designed to claim a community consensus where none has actually been reached. The problem with the collapse template is not that it collapses speech, rather that it dismisses it and presents it as useless in the eyes of the community. That's why it's controversial. It's fine if you want to say a post is bad as an individual. People accept that. But they get tilted when you try to claim nobody wants to listen to them. That's when people start edit warring. Does that make sense? Don't create templates that cause conflict, basically.--Hastur! (talk) 08:08, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
You both have a minority view. The sea-lioning template was completely accepted by the community and done frequently used. A notable percentage of posts in the Saloon are trolling completely written to mislead and provoke. And the longer they sit around with nobody doing anything about it the worse they get and more frequent they come (unlicensed thinker is a particularly good example of that). If you think a template is irresponsibly used you can remove it or state your objection to it. I cannot remember ever seeing such a template used with anybody disagreeing with it. Sealioning, concerntrolling etc was blatant and called out for it. They NEVER led to edit wars. You're arguing about a non-issue in this case. ShabiDOO 08:26, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
This template, along with the excessive use of the collapse template, will cause more conflicts. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 08:32, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
No. Moose's sea-lioning template never caused conflict. The authors of trolling bullshit on the saloon know what they are doing, I've never seen them contest the templates because all they are looking for is a reaction. Not to mention the fact that you've done a fair bit of ill advised collapsing yourself. Try to distinguish between collapsing obvious stupid shit with collapsing to seriously shut down a welcomed or necessary debate. And yes the template is hideously ugly. That's the point. And no Hastur the templates are not all small, several of them have been prominent and large including the Sea-lioning template which thankfully hasn't had to been used for some time. You're both doing a fair bit of exaggerating here. ShabiDOO 08:41, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
I mean, neither did my verygood template. People don't like the response, but it didn't create conflict (conflict already existed). β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 08:45, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
Shabidoo rolls his eyes all the way around in their sockets ShabiDOO 08:55, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

We also have this template.

Rough storm pirate.png Ahoy, matey!
Beware, for there be a great sea of
Concern Troll Bullshit ahead!

It was created specifically for Unlicensed Thinker's Saloon Bar. It did its job and nobody ever complained about it.

You know, I think this entire discussion is making a mountain out of a molehill. Yes, sometimes the collapse template has been used when it shouldn't have been. But I don't think it's being used excessively. If you think it's been used inappropriately, just remove it. However, I think it's only right to collapse borderline sexist/racist/homophobic stuff. And blatantly nasty sexist/racist/homophobic stuff is nothing but vile trolling and should be removed. Spud (talk) 11:13, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

I like the new bait template, I'll try to use that from now if I'm not allowed to clean up bigoted stuff outright I guess. That said, I'd like for a more softer yellow, #ffffbf or something. That'd be easier on the eyes. Sirius (dog star) 11:28, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
This whole discussion is built on blatant exaggeration. The actual number of cases where the collapse template was genuinely abused is...very small.-Flandres (talk) 15:50, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
I'm not clear why this debate is here. What aspect of CS is being discussed? What is the CS proposal?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 13:58, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
Yes. I think this would have been better suited for the Mod noticeboard or just the Saloon Bar. Spud (talk) 14:03, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
My thinking too.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:18, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Can someone remove the site notice template, please?[edit]

The vote on the 2/3 guideline ended on Saturday. There's nothing to discuss as far as the collapse template is concerned. There's no discussion going on here now. Spud (talk) 05:45, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

It's gone. Sirius (dog star) 07:54, 15 September 2020 (UTC)