Talk:Autism rights movement

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So, let me get some things straight.

Is this (especially the neurodiversity thing) pseudoscience? Because to me, it seems nothing more than identity politics being used as a medium to promote mental illness denial (especially since fucking bipolar disorder is defended under this label). --Raysenn ^{Get the paddles, he's having a cancer!} 17:32, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

The "pseudoscience" bit depends on the specific claims made. In general, looks more like an attempt at philosophical re-framing, which may or may not be valid, depending on your views and again on the specific claims made. This is one of the reasons why the article would be better served with more citations. That are not links to the front pages of websites.--ZooGuard (talk) 17:37, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

A search for "bipolar" returns no results on Autism Network International, and only two results on the Autism Self-Advocacy Network - one is in an organization name, the other is in the footnotes of this open letter about the Sandy Hook shooting.--ZooGuard (talk) 17:50, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

For bipolar, I was talking about the whole "neurodiversity" thing, which overlaps with this.

But I also agree with all you say. We should do more citations, but this seems to be a relatively fringe thing. --Raysenn ^{Get the paddles, he's having a cancer!} 18:05, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

This is the first I've heard of the term having anything to do with bipolar disorder. Do you have a source for this? --GastonRabbit (talk) 18:06, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Here:

[T]he neurodiversity concept was initially embraced by individuals on the autism spectrum, but subsequent groups have applied the concept to conditions unrelated (or non-concomitant) to autism such as bipolar disorder [emphasis mine], ADHD, schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, circadian rhythm disorders, developmental speech disorders, Parkinson's disease, dyslexia, developmental coordination disorder, dyscalculia, dysnomia, OCD, and Tourette [sic] syndrome.

Any questions? --Raysenn ^{Get the paddles, he's having a cancer!} 18:18, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Many of those don't have citations, bipolar disorder being one of them. --GastonRabbit (talk) 18:23, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

There's also these guys and this book (one frequently cited by neurodiversity advocates). And no, the whole "but it's the fringe!" doesn't apply here because neurodiversity is a fringe thing in the first place. --Raysenn ^{Get the paddles, he's having a cancer!} 18:47, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

You guys sure are lazy. It took me only a few seconds of Googling to verify the stuff you're complaining about. Wėąṣėḷőįď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 18:57, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Raysenn, nobody other than you said anything about anything being a fringe idea or not. --GastonRabbit (talk) 21:52, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Just in case. --Raysenn ^{Get the paddles, he's having a cancer!} 22:50, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Yeah. I used to identify as a neurodiversity activist, but I don't anymore because of the whitewashing of actual mental illnesses (i.e., not autism). I have OCD and I would get very angry if someone told me that me crying out for the pain to stop is just "part of diversity". I mean, if someone who has OCD/bipolar disorder/etc. decides they don't want a cure, fine, but seeing as how most sufferers of OCD/bipolar/etc. are suicidal, most people would want a cure. Also, a lot of facilitated communication apologism, which to me shows they are pseudoscientists. I am anti-cure-for-autism, and think that autism isn't a disorder, but neurodiversity activists are just ableist as curists because they romanticize illnesses that kill autistics and support NTs speaking over autistics. It's really sad. :/ Snokw (talk) 20:11, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

There's a fair amount of diversity of opinion within the neurodiversity movement itself, though. It's primarily about fighting the tendency to dehumanize neurodivergent people, treat them as inferior, lazy, defective, or fundamentally "broken", with useless lives not worth living, deny them their agency and rights, stigmatize and disrespect them, ignore their opinions, tie their worth as individuals to their ability to hold a job, etc., making the movement just a part of the broader disability rights/self-advocacy movement. That neurodivergent people never suffer from their conditions, that these conditions are never disabling, that nobody should ever want a cure or relief of specific symptoms, that no support is ever needed, etc., is so obviously nonsensical that I've never seen anyone defend these ideas. Only opponents of neurodiversity erect these ridiculous straw men in my experience, and fail to address the core claims of the movement. See, for example, here, here, here, here, here, here, and especially here.

As an analogy, consider trans people. Gender dysphoria sucks, and it's a suffering not always only due to societal discrimination, prejudices and restrictive binary gender norms, but there is often an apparently biological aspect involved (for example, incongruence between body and internal mental body plan), that acceptance alone cannot relieve. But a "cure" for gender dysphoria that involves simply getting rid of the cross-gender desires and turns the person into a (gender-conforming, even?) cis person of their assigned gender is just as impossible as a "cure" that turns an autistic person into a neurotypical person, as both would require a complete rewiring of the brain, and most trans people do not even want to become cis (of their assigned gender) just like most autistic people do not want to become completely neurotypical, because they feel it would make them different people and rob them of their individuality. Even (and, I think, especially) people with severe, painful, even crippling gender dysphoria typically would rather have their body modified than their mind "converted" and their gender identity changed, as far as I'm aware, and you can hardly accuse them of "romanticizing" their condition.

Intersex people have similar concerns: more focus is on making intersex bodies conform to an arbitrary norm than on the wellbeing of the intersex individuals themselves (such as freedom of pain and dysphoria, or their ability to orgasm – medical intervention is typically unnecessary or can be reduced). In sum, the goal is not to turn the person "normal", but to turn the person into a happy person, regardless of if they are "normal" or not. Even if it turns out that the person affected by a condition, despite treatment, has a need for specialized support or has other special needs, has trouble doing certain things, cannot do some things at all, cannot hold a regular job, etc., the main priority should be their own standards and goals, and their quality of life as perceived by the person themselves. --91.7.4.44 (talk) 10:25, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Just a minor criticism regarding your argument, as an Autistic person, I can personally say that autistic people can't be compared to trans people, they are fundamentally different in so many ways that comparison would be beyond incomparable to autism. Pre-Trans and Gender-Dysphoric people already have a cure, and that is transitioning. Autistic people don't. So saying trans people don't have a cure and calling said rectifications as "treatments" ignores the fact that said treatments you reference gets rid of the fundamental condition, (that being dysphoria for said persons gender), which can therefore be seen as a "cure" and can live a perfectly normal life after said treatments, while autism cannot be compared in such a way as autism is a life-long condition, as well as said "treatments" that do exist being unable to reach into the core of what is causing said condition and therefore rectify said issues and can often never truly fit into society and live a normal life, alongside form long-lasting, strong bonds and relationships, which are so essential to the human experience which cannot be easily treated (or cured) with a simple transition surgery like Gender Dysphoria can. Which is why I think comparison of such is misunderstanding the actual condition of autism as well as misunderstands the pro-cure side of the autism advocacy debate. Not all autistics (including me) agree with the idea that all cures are going to destroy us, I myself don't feel like a human being, more robotic, and unable to care for others or form relationships with others even when I want to, so to me a cure would (possibly) make me more "human", the thing is many of us in the AS and ND community actually see ourselves as at least to a significant extent suffering from said condition, not just from society, but from the condition itself, although not universal to all Autistics and ND people. It should still be considered when trying to speak on behalf of all of the AS community. ^{— Unsigned, by: 72.53.87.239 / talk} 07:38 PM, 05, September 2021 (EDT)

Science Can Only Prove Notions of "Is" Not "Ought"

Hence there is nothing pseudoscientific about saying these different ways of thinking, these different neurologies should be accepted as equal. It's philosophical reframing not pseudoscience. Scientists can show how X, Y, and Z results in A. They can't prove which way is best.92.204.14.250 (talk) 12:52, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

The article only mentions Pseudoscience in the see also section and doesn't seem to be unfairly biased. Is there something I'm not seeing here? Zero (talk) 12:56, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Complaints from incensed Facebooker

Comment on the official RW page: [1] May be worth going through for fixes - David Gerard (talk) 18:42, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Ugh, except for the first couple of posts, the complaint is not very specific beyond "autistic people have it bad", something that this page doesn't seem to dispute.

I think the main problem of the article is that it was originally supposed to be about a "neurodiversity movement", but the current title and partially the content creates the impression that it is about autism advocacy organizations in general. I suggest renaming, refocusing and/or spinning parts of this into separate articles (e.g. if the concept of neurodiversity or approaches to it is problematic, it deserves a separate article).--ZooGuard (talk) 19:06, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

As someone who's close to a fair number of people on the spectrum...

I actually think both sides have valid points. Able-ism is certainly problematic, but at the same time, it's clear many people with ASD would consider themselves to be *suffering* from it, and not just because of how ableist idiots treat them. From what I've seen (and talked with others about), the symptoms themselves already provide enough pain without people inexplicably using "autism" as a synonym for "fucking retarded".

Though it wouldn't hurt if more people on the spectrum could learn to laugh at themselves. Though, on the flip side, far too many neurotypicals are too serious as well. Resident Ishtar worshiper (talk) 02:47, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

I add this as an #ActuallyAutistic: I don't identify with Neurodiversity. Autism is a painful condition. I do not enjoy it. I'm accepted, but it fucking sucks. Neurodiversity often erases the experience of people who don't enjoy being autistic and we should be wary of that. ^{— Unsigned, by: 176.231.115.134 / talk}

The Autism Cure Debate

This seems to be extensively promoting the "anti-cure" narrative within many neurodiversity groups without providing much nuance regarding the varied beliefs on autistic people regarding their condition and a potential "cure". It also ignores that such debates often ignore those most affected by autism who are not able to speak for themselves. I feel while the desire for many autistics to reject a cure, at least by the autism speaks movement is accurate at least to some degree, but it greatly ignores a large portion of autistics who feel they would be better off cured or at least treated to reduce autistic traits or symptoms that are often advocated for within certain autistic communities that also make a significant portion of the autism advocacy community. Historically this debate has led to a lot of infighting regarding the neurodiversity and autism rights communities so I feel that leaving this debate out is disingenuous to accurately reflect the wide array of opinions regarding the treatment for those with autism by said communities, as well as fails to understand that Neurotypicals tend to also generalize the anti-cure narrative against those autistics who want one such as ones who greatly are affected by it, as well for their own ends just like how Neurotypicals in movements like Autism Speaks does for the Pro-Cure narrative. I of course say this as actually autistic. ^{— Unsigned, by: 72.53.87.239 / talk}

Bring references. You seem to/claim to have knowledge of the wider community. Make the article better/worse/something to debate over. Kntai (talk) 10:39, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

To me the whole idea of autism "cure" seems like a some kind of distorted and neutered version of transhumanism. It is like robbing a bank, but stealing just a handful of pennies. It involves all the risks of transhumanism, but very few of the benefits. If we'll ever be able to manipulate human brain structure in a controlled manner, I can come up with more ambitious uses for it rather than just desperately striving for normalcy. --192.130.189.130 (talk) 18:20, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Well guess what, I brought references and it was still undone by someone who undid them even though they were properly sourced any everything, saying I "didn't give enough sources" (which is dubious at best, especially factoring in many of the claims in this page are uncited anyway) even worse is that this article is objectively biased because it portrays the autism rights movement as inherently "good" by using terms life "unfortunately" when the autism rights movement is not successful in their goal. To me it gives less of facts and more of a POV from the neurodiversity movements perspective rather than the nuanced science. Also, as an autistic, and someone with some first-nations ancestry, to compare the neurodiversity movement (which argues various mental disorders are just harmless differences that simply need to be accepted including but not limited to intelectual disabilities, social disabilities, conditions like schizophrenia etc.) and me giving sources to such advocates claiming such, to historic resistance movements to actual more factually confirmed forms of oppression, such as red power (fighting historic imperialism) or gay rights to me seems far-fetched at best and at worst actively harmful to said progressive movements comparing them to a movement that may underplay the severity of many conditions. Especially when the neurodiversity movement is at best mixed in autism research and advocacy spaces. And is only recently gaining a large amount of support due to social media and many either being low-supports needs or self-diagnosing --192.130.189.130 ([[User talk:|talk]]) 11:15, 31 December 2021 (UTC) ^{— Unsigned, by: 72.53.87.239 / talk / contribs}

Nutty ND opponents

Just for the record, a well-known ND opponent Yuval Leventhal has claimed to having been his autism treated by freaking plastic surgery. Manuel Casanova, a prominent quack doctor specialized on autism "research" proceeded on to publish that piece on his blog.

It should go without saying that the criticism of the activities of those people is not any sort of mental illness denial or anything like that. --2001:2003:F4A4:B700:B10D:EEBC:BC2E:FB82 (talk) 07:49, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Sounds to me like trying to invalidate critics in general because of one individuals quite frankly absurd arguments as a case of nut-picking, just like the neurodiversity movement, we cannot represent an entire movement by representing the worst arguments of those who are critical of the ND movement in the same way we can not write off all ND activists as those who want to accept conditions like psychopathy and reject all forms of treatments as the debate is far more nuanced than that (Edit. I will respond to the replies later but would like to address that I dearly apologize for unintentionally using an old IP address that is not of my current IP, as it switches frequently)--192.130.189.130 ([[User talk:|talk]]) 01:39, 03 March 2022 (UTC) ^{— Unsigned, by: 72.53.87.239 / talk / contribs}

Casanova is pretty much "the" autism biomed doctor, and the fact that he platforms that kind of batshittery, is concerning. --2001:2003:F4A4:B700:8CB0:C995:B90D:6180 (talk) 13:09, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

And please stop falsifying signatures. Signing with IP addresses of other people is confusing. You can sign your comments using four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking on the sign button: on the toolbar above the edit panel. --2001:2003:F4A4:B700:8CB0:C995:B90D:6180 (talk) 13:19, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

By the way, psychopathy, or antisocial personality disorder, as it is known to modern mainstream psychiatry, is not a particularly well treatable condition. One can accept or refuse to accept it, but uncontrolled, unscientific experimentation is not likely to do any good. --2001:2003:F4A4:B700:8CB0:C995:B90D:6180 (talk) 13:38, 9 March 2022 (UTC)