Talk:Black Hebrew Israelites

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Beta Israel

This should be distinguished from the Beta Israelis--{{SUBST:User:Brxbrx/sig}} 13:51, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Israel

has started deporting them recently and one or two there have adopted proper Judaism.-Albannach (talk) 09:46, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

So are these guys generally seen as racist?

Came across one (or two if they aren't making new accounts) on r/Christianity arguing that general white Jewish races are not Jewish like the Ashkenazis and to say the least people are not very happy. I never saw them there before.--2603:90D8:403:392E:1D19:C863:1532:124F (talk) 22:26, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Equivalent to KKK?

These guys are undoubtedly bigoted, but I think it's a little bit disingenuous to say that these small fringe groups of an oppressed minority hold the same systemic weight as the much-less fringe group of the dominant ethnic majority in the United States. It's also uncomfortable since Afrocentrists (and the BHI are ideologically Afrocentrists) are often targeted by white supremacists (see "We wuz kangs" as an example of this) both as a target of mockery (mostly to mock the notion that black people could ever have accomplished anything equivalent to Western civilization) and to cover their asses.

You're not going to convince any member of these groups with pointless mockery. It's probably a far more productive line of inquiry to ask what the social and historical context for these groups are and why they make the claims they do. "Why would some people from a group of people who've experienced massive amounts of oppression decide to take very well known and regarded historical narratives and insert themselves into them?"

It's especially suspicious to me when people make a big deal that the black community "as a whole" has a problem with antisemitism and yet don't apply the same standards to white communities, who developed the historical underpinnings for antisemitism in the first place. I don't think it's a coincidence that Kanye West, as he integrates into these white elite power structures, is taking on talking points much more in line with the narrative promoted by these white power structures. Carthage (talk) 08:30, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

I see your point. It's not clear what exactly the context was for Metzger's quote. It would probably be better if it was part of a section on increased militancy within the BHI, such as was done in the SPLC reference. Bongolian (talk) 08:48, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

I just wrote the section on BHI militancy and extremism. I'll properly format the references later. Carthage (talk) 09:19, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

The idea prejudice and oppression against Jews was something white people started, is ahistorical to say the least. BHI theology is incredibly comparable to Christian Identity (a mirrored version of it), which is what some (perhaps many) in the KKK believe in. Though conflating Christian Identity and the KKK would be incorrect as well. Chillpilled (talk) 11:31, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

What I mean is that many of the modern tropes associated with antisemitism at the very least have been amplified historically by white communities (blood libel, Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and so on) that have a lot more institutional power than black communities here in the West. The Black Hebrew Israelites have never enjoyed the institutional dominance that groups like the Klan historically have, and there's a reason for that: they're black, who are an underclass in American society. Ultimately whether or not there have been antisemitic currents in the Muslim world is irrelevant as Black Hebrew Israelites are a fundamentally Western group. The BHI are part of a wider phenomenon of black American communities searching for identity elsewhere because they view their own history of slavery and oppression as shameful. Carthage (talk) 11:47, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

As for arguments about early proponents of Afrocentrism I would argue they were a very different group using very different methodologies responding to dominant narratives that black people had no history. People had a lot less knowledge about Ancient Egypt in the early 19th century than we do now, so claiming Ancient Egypt as a couterexample to white supremacist narratives of the day was arguably not pseudohistorical with the knowledge available at the time. The difference between, say, David Walker and Frederick Douglass and modern afrocentrists is that Walker and Douglass lived through what is now considered history, and were responding to common narratives of the day using the knowledge available to them. Modern afrocentrists look back at that history and reject it.

Ironically Walker actually argued against the "Back to Africa" movement, which was championed by white supremacists of the time. Walker argued that because black slaves built this country, this country was more their country than white peoples. "We built America, it is more our country than yours." Kind of ironic then that many modern afrocentrists champion an almost identical movement. Carthage (talk) 11:55, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Or, to quote Walker directly:

What our brethren could have been thinking about, who have left their native land and home and gone away to Africa, I am unable to say. This country is as much ours as it is the whites', whether they will admit it now or not, they will see and believe it by and by.

Carthage (talk) 12:02, 17 December 2023 (UTC)