Talk:Bottled water/Archive1

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Good reasons for bottled water.

I have to say, that I drink a lot of bottled water. Not because I believe it to be healthier than tap water, but because we haven't replaced our water filter in years, and so our tap water isn't exactly very clean.ZeroIsLogic (talk) 01:32, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

The tap water is supposed to have been filtered to a high standard before it reaches your home, in many first world countries anyways. Nullahnung (talk) 02:08, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, and the X kilometers of plumbing in varying condition between your home and the filtering plant have no effect at all.

A major problem with the article is that it is Americentric, or even developed-areas-in-the-USA-centric. And the fun part is that some self-proclaimed "skeptics" carry over the sentiment to places where it doesn't apply. *eyes limescale deposit on bottom of kettle* --ZooGuard (talk) 09:36, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

And also UK/middle-Europe-centric. Plumbing is usually designed and monitored so that water quality doesn't deteriorate much. But yeah, water hardness in areas that have that problem is bad for your kettle, and that's one of the main reasons for in-home filtering.

The article needs to take into account advantages of bottled water and preferrably have a list of the countries where the misconceptions apply. Nullahnung (talk) 11:14, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I was just pointing out it does have advantages. My dad mentioned that our filter could be deteriorating into the water that goes through it, though I haven't done any research on if that can happen. I realize my water is still clean compared to a lot of the world, but that doesn't mean it can't be cleaner.ZeroIsLogic (talk) 18:59, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes yes, fair enough. I just want to mention that water can only be so clean until further cleaning becomes insignificantly effective. It all depends, though, you should get some statistics for what your own tap water contains that you are getting from the water company, and then based on that make a useful decision on what level of extra filtering is needed. Useful little brochure: http://www.epa.gov/safewater/faq/pdfs/fs_healthseries_filtration.pdf Nullahnung (talk) 20:07, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

"Because I haven't changed my water filter in years" is a good reason to change your water filter, not a good reason to buy bottled water." TeenageWasteland (talk) 20:21, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, you have a good reason to talk about some good points about bottled water. I've added some useful things that tap water can't do, primarily, serve as an essential component of disaster emergency kit. Otherwise, yeah, you should change your water filter. It will save you money on the long run, especially considering how bottled water costs nearly the same as gasoline.

I can't do much about the U.S.A.-centricness the article has right now. I can probably do some research, but I'm not sure where to start. I'm afraid of making crap up and stuff. :P LEFTYGREENMARIO 06:41, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Reverse osmosis?

How widely available are those mechanisms in places that sells RO bottled water (such as Aquafina)? Because they definitely taste different from tap water. [[User:K61824|]][[User_talk:K61824|]] 22:14, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

thefactsaboutwater.org

I don't know if this is a good site. It doesn't read like propaganda nor is it trying to slant me one way (except from trying to convince me that bottled water isn't that bad), but I see potential conflicts of interest which are in its mission statement and list of two companies associated with people, one which is Nestle Waters of North America, Inc., another being suspiciously a bottled water company: Absopure Water Co., Inc..

The Drinking Water Research Foundation (DWRF) is an independent, not-for-profit 501 (c) 3 foundation that was established in 1984 by several members of the bottled water and point of use drinking water filtration industries

If it means anything, Wikipedia has cited it on the "19.5 million illness cases attributed to tap water". It also explains how regulations are handled between tap and water, how the two are supplied to viewers like you, and even how to read some reports.

Their FAQ also seem to have an emphasis with bottled water. They seem to cite hard numbers of tap water incidents compared to <10 bottled water incidents.

6,435 public water systems reported violations of the Total Coliform Rule to the USEPA in 2011. Many of those violations resulted in boil water orders for consumers. Bottled water, in comparison, is documented by FDA as having only one (1) Class II recall for fecal coliform bacteria in the past 20+ years.

I mean, to someone like me, it sounds pretty convincing despite the conflicts of interest.

This page pretty much tells me the site is pro-bottled water, but do its claims hold up? Me, I'm not sure. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 06:15, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Important points about bottled water

Michael Shermer on bottled water (free), as originally published in Scientific American (paywalled). Reverend Black Percy (talk) 12:40, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Main

How important to this wiki is this article? A while back this was a silver? or bronze? article, and I was wondering what it would take to get this on the main page, purely for the laughs. I'd find it so funny if bottled water was a featured article lol. Anim (Carfa) 01:48, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Well, I created the page in the first place, but I don't think this was ever demoted to silver OR bronze. Right now, we could think about getting it to bronze because it's a pretty important topic and I think it can use an expansion, but I lack confidence in filtering good information from the bad ones, lol. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 01:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

It's a topic that deserves coverage, no doubt. And I'd advise you both to start by reading this. It's worth your time, I assure you. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 02:07, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Fact checking

Water prices vs gasoline prices

by buying regular water at a price (per gallon) above gasoline.

ABC has an interesting article on this exact topic:

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/01/15/gas-cheaper-than-water-not-so-fast.html

So is bottled water more expensive than gasoline?

Short answer: no

Long answer: yes, but...—€h33s3βurg3rF@€3  (talk • stalk) 02:19, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Water for emergency kits

The most valid choice for bottled water is being a part of emergency kits since tap water may be inaccessible after a disaster (it takes electricity to pump water through the system).

This part is an unsourced argument from FEMA's website. The site states bottled water is "the safest and most reliable emergency water supply". Safest water supply? Hardly. In addition, if have an emergency kit, you are planning ahead, therefore the lack of electricity during a disaster is irrelevant. The saddest part? A government website is claiming this nonsense...—€h33s3βurg3rF@€3  (talk • stalk) 02:48, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

You can make the changes if you want. You've been around with us a while, I'm sure you can write a thing or two. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 02:52, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

CBF is a most able writer, indeed! Reverend Black Percy (talk) 09:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

CBF, can you elaborate on why this is nonsense? I mean, I have thought enough about this to follow your reasoning that if you have planned ahead adequately with your emergency kit, you could store up some tap water in a suitable container instead of using bottled water and it would probably be cleaner and perhaps cheaper (depending on the cheapness of the thermos can... in fact, I don't know why I'm even bringing up cheapness, since price is of the least concern for an emergency kit, sorry about that), so yes, bottled water is not the absolute best option for an emergency kit, but this does not mean that the government website is claiming nonsense. It was simply a recommendation by the government website, since it is reasonable to assume that buying some commercially bottled water is the quick and easy solution and certainly "good enough" for everyone, whereas if you are keen on doing more thorough preparation you can follow the other guidelines on how to store up tap water found right below the recommendation of bottled water. Our main point in the article is that tap water is the same effectively but much cheaper than bottled water, there is no significant difference, ignoring price, apart from bottled water is a bit easier to keep since it already comes in a container and tap water is easier to use as you've got it in your home. 171.33.193.245 (talk) 11:13, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

On second thought, and re-reading what you wrote originally, your argument was that the government used an absolute word like "safest" with bottled water, which is not entirely true, as tap water can be safer. I would argue however, that this is the government thinking that rather than risk people preparing their own containers for tap water and making a mistake, storing it in an inadequate way, it would be "safer", so to speak, for them to just buy bottled water, which is good enough. 171.33.193.245 (talk) 11:22, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Hey BoN, thanks for posting! Given the paragraph about preparing your own water container is before the bottled water section, I would definitely agree that your proposition is the reasoning behind it. I would say that the site doesn't do the best job arguing for bottled water, but there are definitely arguments to be made for bottled water in emergency situations. Perhaps a better source can be used?

Another argument for emergency bottled water, convenience is a not a necessity for every day life, but when a city needs water during an emergency, bottled water is a great resource for quick water. —€h33s3βurg3rF@€3  (talk • stalk) 12:59, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

The bad things about bottled water

We need a section like this aside from the clever marketing and regulations sections.

• Making bottles to meet America’s demand for bottled water uses more than 17 million barrels of oil annually, enough to fuel 1.3 million cars for a year. And that’s not even including the oil used for transportation.
• The energy we waste using bottled water would be enough to power 190,000 homes.
• Last year, the average American used 167 disposable water bottles, but only recycled 38.3. Americans used about 50 billion plastic water bottles last year. However, the U.S.’s recycling rate for plastic is only 23 percent, which means 38 billion water bottles – more than $1 billion worth of plastic – are wasted each year.
• The average water pitcher filters 240 gallons of water a year for about 19 cents a day4. Put in perspective, to get the same amount of water from bottled water would require 1,818 16.9-ounce water bottles a year5 – at an average cost of a dollar a bottle, that’s $4.98 a day.
• Plastic water bottles can take between 400 and 1,000 years to decompose.
• The NRDC conducted a comprehensive four-year scientific study of 1,000 brands of bottled water. The results showed that one third of the bottled waters violated their own industry standards for water quality.
• It takes 17 million barrels of oil to produce plastic bottles yearly. This could fuel 1 million cars for a year.
• It requires 3 times the amount of water to produce a plastic bottle than it does to fill it.
• In California, tap water costs around one tenth of a cent per gallon, while bottled water is 0.90 cents a gallon. That makes tap water 560 times less expensive than bottled water.
• "The biggest enemy is tap water," said a Pepsi VP in 2000. "When we're done, tap water will be relegated to irrigation and washing dishes," said Susan D. Wellington of Quaker Oats, the maker of Gatorade. But its more than just words: Coca-Cola has been in the business of discouraging restaurants from serving tap water, and pushing "less water and more beverage choices."
• Tap water -- which is EPA regulated -- undergoes testing for e. coli, is required to provide its source and produce quality reports. Bottled water, on the other hand, doesn't have to meet any of those standards to be distributed. Additionally, the Food and Drug Administration regulates bottled water and its standards pale in comparison to the EPA's for the tap. A few examples of this include: less frequent bacteria testing, no mandatory reports of violations to federal officials, and no filtration or disinfection requirements on the federal level (while many states have no meaningful programs of their own).
• Bottles used to package water take over 1,000 years to bio-degrade and if incinerated, they produce toxic fumes. It is estimated that over 80% of all single-use water bottles used in the U.S. simply become "litter."
• Recycling is only feasible in limited circumstances because only PET bottles can be recycled. All other bottles are discarded. Only 1 out of 5 bottles are sent to the recycle bin.
• U.S. landfills are overflowing with 2 million tons of discarded water bottles alone.
• It is estimated that actually 3 liters of water is used to package 1 liter of bottled water.
• It takes over 1.5 million barrels of oil to meet the demand of U.S. water bottle manufacturing. This amount of oil far exceeds the amount needed to power 100,000 [sic] for a year, which does not include fossil fuel and emissions costs of green house gases needed to transport the final product to market.

References

Anim (Carfa) 11:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Looks okay, needs some trimming here and there (for example, there are overlapping points about decomposition of bottled water stating different year ranges which could be made more compact by condensing down into one point, and also it's been mentioned elsewhere in the article so points which are mentioned elsewhere in the article need to be condensed into this section and we should decide upon one source to use with each point we are making instead of using sources that overlap in purpose). Please go ahead! :) 171.33.193.245 (talk) 12:02, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I see there's overlapping (banthebottle.net uses many different ways to say 20 percent). The source itself just borrows from other places, many of which appear to be down.—€h33s3βurg3rF@€3  (talk • stalk) 13:56, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

I'll fix overlaps and find working references then before I write anything. Was just checking with you all to make sure those points looked decent. Anim (Carfa) 14:03, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Also could we perhaps focus on the world instead of just America in the article? This website is already American-centric as is. Also points to hit:

1. People suck at recycling
2. BPA makes frogs gay or some shit^{[citation NOT needed]}
3. The profit margins are insane
4. Plastic bottles create a larger demand for oil and plastic

Also, I honestly think the article should focus more on the quality of the sources rather than finding points that sound good. We should focus more of sourcing studies directly.—€h33s3βurg3rF@€3  (talk • stalk) 14:40, 6 April 2017 (UTC)